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by dive 37 days ago
It makes sense when the editor is a core feature of your paid product. I understand the sentiment.

But is not it strange that I would need 8 months & a "development is ongoing" mindset just to render Markdown (which is very secondary to the main app features, and mostly just a user convenience people expect in 2026) with a custom low-level solution, effectively playing hardcore engineer instead of building what I actually want to build?

Anyhow, my point is not that "it is impossible". My point in the article is that I understand why people choose web technologies over native for such things. They want to build products, not fight the system’s limitations.

3 comments

> just to render Markdown

Rendering text beyond ASCII is famously difficult to do; rendering formatted text is sometimes difficult to even make sense of (e.g. what should a style change in the middle of an Arabic word do? how about a selection boundary being moved with arrow keys?); rendering honest-to-goodness Markdown, which can technically include arbitrary HTML tags, is nowhere in the vicinity of a small project.

None of which is to say that you shouldn’t demand that a toolkit solve it for you, only that I understand why the RichEdit control reportedly had a separate team allocated to it in turn-of-the-millenium Microsoft. Working with a large amount of formatted text feels like it should be the most complicated feature of any UI toolkit and I shudder at the thought of even designing the API for it.

(A web browser is good at all this. It also has the API surface of a web browser.)

And some things will still be on you regardless. Did you know Android has two modes for text wrapping, one that won’t reflow the entire paragraph after a single-word change at the end and a different one whose results embarrass a typographer from half a millenium ago? That’s very much the correct way to do things, but if you’re streaming text in, it’s on you to decide whether you want subpar wrapping throughout or a layout jump whenever a paragraph break arrives. Most importantly, it’s on you to know the question exists; there are more, some more important than this one.

(Modern toolkits aren’t the only ones that can be bad at scaling to large amounts of data, either. Notably, Microsoft had to write an entire new “windowless” one to replace USER’s heavyweight window-based one so that Access wouldn’t collapse under its own weight. They then reused it for IE, for similar reasons. Raymond Chen’s response[1] to complaints about that toolkit staying private to Microsoft amounted to “fuck off”.)

[1] https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20050211-00/?p=36...

> a different one whose results embarrass a typographer

whose results won’t embarrass (of course; sorry)

You're assuming the text editor component alone took 8 months, but of course it did not! That would be crazy. There's a whole app built around the text component, which is what took my time, and the reason people are buying the app.

Development is ongoing for the features around the text component. I added folding lists which took a while, and because I offer outliner features I added focus/hoist which was also quite complicated.

Performance profiling and adjustments were measured and solved when I was almost done, because premature optimisation is a bad idea.

I don't consider what I did fighting any sort of limitations, so I guess it's a point-of-view thing. I wanted to use system components, and the only way to do that whilst maintaining performance is to do it with due care and attention. Nothing comes for free.

Nothing comes for free, but OP’s entire point is that the price to pay for even halfway decent native markdown rendering is too high - and thus a reason why people often give up and go to Electron.

They could not have made their point more clearly but people like you are up and down the thread wanting to call “skill issue”. The reality is that nobody gives a shit and they want to ship interesting things fast; if OS makers won’t get the hell in line and offer APIs to do it, then these developers are going to just pick Electron.

Life is way too short to sit down and write half a damn text editor when all you wanted to do was shit out a basic application with blobs of markdown.

So now it's personal and I'm the bad guy because I happened to have already done what the OP says is not possible? Deeply uncool.The price is not high at all, and it's not an opinion or theory because I've proven it by shipping an app. The OS makers already offer "APIs to do it" and, as with any type of component or framework, if you bend it the wrong way you'll get bad results. If you abuse Electron you'll also get bad performance there, it's no silver bullet. This is not ground-breaking information, just common sense.
> So now it's personal and I'm the bad guy

It's not personal, but yes, you're being intentionally obtuse to OP's point.

> and it's not an opinion or theory because I've proven it by shipping an app

You are once again downplaying the level of effort difference that OP is describing, thus missing the point entirely.

> if you bend it the wrong way you'll get bad results

OP did not bend it the wrong way, they tried several different approaches because it wasn't working as intended off the bat (i.e, without bending).

OP's point was never that things were "not possible", it's that it's a stupid amount of effort for table-stakes functionality. If you don't get that point by now then I don't think you'll get it at all.

I'm not being obtuse, on the contrary I am bright and focussed enough that my experience building an app around TextKit 2 was opposite to the premise of the OP. It's a few lines of code to add a TextKit2 component to an app, and it just works. It is what the developer does with it afterwards that will make or break it. The same goes for Electron, it is not a panacea. That's just software development, the developer is responsible for the code they write.

So the reader is free to accept my story about my shipped app and my assurance that it didn't take unreasonable effort, or accept a blog post complaining how difficult things are that has no code or shipped app at the end of it.

Judging by the color of the text on your comment (currently downvoted gray), I think it's pretty clear how readers are taking it. I would encourage you to take a wider view of the problems in the UI ecosystem and why people make tradeoffs like they do.
Not to turn this into an AI debate, but it will only take 8 months if you insist on coding manually.

I'm doing little video utility apps that I never would have attempted a year ago, because I know the challenges of AVFoundation all too well. But if I don't have to actually write that plumbing? Sure.

It took me "8 months" because I had another job for part of that time, so I wasn't working on my apps for all that time. At the start of this year, I decided to tidy up the app for release...along with 20 others. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47809151