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by ordu 32 days ago
> We must be careful that articles/papers like these are not used by the anti-scientific crowd to promote their talking points and agendas.

It is a slippery slope. At the moment you started to avoid talking about some things because your political opponents could use your ideas to promote their agenda, you stopped being a scientist and became a politician. You thinking is no more scientific, it is political. You are not a scientist anymore, you are a politician.

I dramatize a bit, it doesn't happen all suddenly, but before you started to devise a strategy of censoring discussion due to political reasons, you should find a way to do it without inhibiting thought and free flow of ideas.

From the other hand, I don't understand the discourse at all. If you don't like what anti-scientific crowd says, just don't read them. They will find talking points with you or without you. I believe, people are mistaken that you can curb somehow anti-science movement.

Lets take for example that story with "vaccines cause autism". If the paper claiming that was not published, there would be no antivaxxers, oder? I believe it doesn't matter. They would find something else, the whole point of their ideology "science is a conspiracy which hides things". So not published paper comes into the category of hidden things. They always find something. It is dynamic system with a chaotic behavior, you can try as hard as you like to remove triggers created by science, but conspiracy theories would be spawn by something "smaller".

1 comments

You are on a tangent here and not what i was implying.

It is not about censoring or playing politics. It is about the wording of the title of the OP article and its rather well-known thesis. All Scientists know the limitations of their own understanding and continuously revise it using the Scientific Method.

Given the very real negative agendas out there, it is every scientifically-minded person's duty to be aware of how their own words might be turned to discredit Science itself even though they did not mean it originally. The fact that the anti-scientific crowd might find something else to attack is beside the point. Science does not exist in vacuum but is subject to societal context/pressures and hence scientists must learn to navigate them judiciously in their writings.

As Isaac Asimov noted; The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

> The fact that the anti-scientific crowd might find something else to attack is beside the point.

I can't agree. If awareness doesn't change the outcome, then why to practice it?

Scientific awareness does change the outcome; just not 100% and not all at the same time. This is how Science has always advanced, slowly but surely overcoming obstacles over a period of time.

See Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions for a detailed analysis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Re...

Thomas Kuhn wrote about workings of science as of a social institution, how science accepts paradigms and rejects them, not how anti-science activists do. I don't think it is relevant in any way. Scientists are expected to stick to the scientific method. Anti-science doesn't have a method, it is just a reactionary movement, moreover it is not a movement, it is a lot of movements. Consecutive movements oftentimes are unaware of their predecessors. Different structures, different motives, different dynamics, they are too different to generalize them into one bucket.

> Scientific awareness does change the outcome; just not 100% and not all at the same time.

It is a pretty big claim. I don't see you (or anyone) can provide a single example for it. The trouble is science doesn't have tools to prove counterfactual "if science was unaware the outcome would be different". This problem affect my opposite statement too: we can't prove that outcome wouldn't be different. Still, I believe, that I'm right: I talked a lot with different people of different views, and I don't think that any scientific awareness can stop them to be anti-science. They have their own motives to be anti-science, any scientific awareness doesn't address their motives. In most cases people either invested in anti-science views somehow, or it is something deeper on the level on self-actualization, like they exercise their free will to prove to themselves they have a free will. Both reasons have nothing to do with the truth or scientific awareness.

Kuhn's work marries Sociology to Scientific Progress (i am not sure whether you have actually read the book; it is a difficult work to comprehend) and his thesis is often used by the anti-science crowd to argue that Scientific Facts are merely Social Constructs rather than Objective Truths. While the process of doing science and its progress are subject to sociological pressures (i.e. subjective) the theories/models arrived at are objective truths (for the hard sciences) and verified by employing the scientific method (mainly by peer review and experiment replication). But Kuhn argued against Scientific Realism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_realism) and instead proposed Scientific Paradigms (i.e. normal science as puzzle solving within a shared set of beliefs) and Scientific Paradigm Shifts (i.e. revolutionary science due to changed evidence and hence beliefs). This is what is exploited by the anti-science crowd to argue that nothing is definite and everything is subject to change since they are all "just beliefs". Note that Poincare's works on the philosophy of science gives more necessary background.

Contrary to your claim, anti-science does have methods/processes/techniques since it is a movement(s) with a definite goal(s). Wikipedia gives the details - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiscience

What don't you understand from my statement "Scientific awareness does change the outcome; just not 100% and not all at the same time."? It is self-evident if you had actually read Kuhn or Poincare. The "outcome" referred to is the acceptance of scientific theory/model under discussion; "just not 100%" means all aspects of the theory/model might not be accepted initially pending further experimental validation and "not all at the same time" means the acceptance of the theory/model happens over a period of time.

> The trouble is science doesn't have tools to prove counterfactual "if science was unaware the outcome would be different". This problem affect my opposite statement too: we can't prove that outcome wouldn't be different.

This makes no sense at all. The various scientific theories/models have changed people's lives, civilizations/world etc. most definitely. It just happens over a period of time as more and more people buy into the new theory/model and/or see proofs of its correctness via technological advances.

As regards your last few lines w.r.t. sections of the anti-science crowd; it is easily explained by agendas (religious, political etc.), propaganda and plain old stupidity/pigheadedness. As the ditty goes; if you have the facts on your side, pound the facts; if you have the law on your side, pound the laws and if you have neither, pound the table.