[seabass-labrax]

> 10 years went by and the search for Mister 880 turned into the largest and most expensive counterfeit investigation in Secret Service history.

The article doesn't explain why the Secret Service made this their biggest case, and it doesn't make much sense to me. If the dollars were accepted by the general population, it would cause an infinitesimal increase in inflation of no consequence to others. And if shopkeepers wised up to the false dollars and rejected them, at worst he was defrauding the public by a few hundred dollars a year. In either eventuality, surely the Secret Service had more notorious counterfeiters to track down?

[tux3]

The state reserves some of the harshest punishments for counterfeiters, since large scale counterfeit operations is one of the few crimes that is an attack on the state itself.

The US secret service was originally created specifically to combat counterfeit money, it's no surprise that they would keep tracking this man for a decade.

This man is unusual because he did the tiniest amount of one the most severely punished crime.

[intrasight]

I have two "counterfeiting" stories - both of which are humorous even though one involve the Secret Service.

The first was in college. A buddy of mine scribbled a facsimile of a $20 onto a piece of paper with a green marker. He then handed it to the checkout clerk at the cafeteria who took it and started to hand them back change. He stopped her and said "no, no it's a joke - look at what I just handed you". She was embarrassed but they both laughed together.

The second story which does involve the Secret Service is when my friend had a bunch of presents that he had wrapped and put in his front porch until was going to depart for a party. One of the presents was wrapped in a sheet of uncut dollar bills - which you could buy for that purpose.

A neppy neighbor saw it through the window and called the police who called the FBI who called the Secret Service who came knocking on his door to investigate. They were also embarrassed but I don't think they laughed. My friend told him he understands that they're just doing their job and that it's an important one.

[technothrasher]

> The first was in college.

I remember my friend coming home from his first year in college and telling me about how he passed a counterfeit $30 he'd found to a clueless clerk and they actually made the correct change. My wise-ass response was that that wasn't actually counterfeit, it was just fraud.

[chuckadams]

The fraud of passing off something of lesser value as the genuine article is the definition of counterfeiting.

[Uvix]

But there is no such thing as a “genuine” $30 bill.

[chuckadams]

If it's being passed off as money, then someone thought it was. I don't think the Secret Service cares if it's an invalid denomination or has Bozo the Clown on the front. Probably not a high priority for them given the overall lack of believability, but the attempt is what counts.

[iambateman]

If you’ll allow yourself to go one step further in the pedantry, there is no such thing as genuine money either.

[selimthegrim]

Isn’t this “uttering”?

[tekla]

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna4489683

[gblargg]

The best are sheets of $2 bills with perforations, as Steve Wozniak did: https://youtu.be/LJ1TIYxm1vM

[Wowfunhappy]

^ This clip made me want to watch the full interview, which was somewhat difficult to find. I eventually managed to pull a copy out of the Wayback Machine. In case anyone else wants it: https://web.archive.org/web/20111214055934if_/http://cdn22.c...

[intrasight]

That's wonderful. what a prankster is Wozniak!

[bombcar]

https://www.usmint.gov/paper-currency/uncut-currency/ Expensive wrapping paper and cutting it wrong may be defacing currency!

[PantaloonFlames]

Darren Brown paying with blank paper. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vz_YTNLn6w

[ghtbircshotbe]

What is neppy?

[shepmaster]

At a Pittsburgher, I assumed it was a misspelling of “nebby”.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nebby

[cenamus]

Also a fascinating read: The Nazi counterfeiting operation, intended to devalue the Pound and crash the British economy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bernhard

[gosub100]

north korea has been doing it against the US for decades. they are better at printing our currency than we are.

[cenamus]

I suppose mostly to fund their "ventures"?

[eru]

> The state reserves some of the harshest punishments for counterfeiters, since large scale counterfeit operations is one of the few crimes that is an attack on the state itself.

Which is pretty ironic, given that the state need not be involved in providing physical cash at all.

[JumpCrisscross]

> the state reserves some of the harshest punishments for counterfeiters

This is empirically untrue [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfeit_money#Penalties_by...

[cowsandmilk]

The number of countries where life imprisonment is available possible sentence for counterfeiting seems to confirm it having some of the harshest punishments.

[PowerElectronix]

One of the fastest ways to make a state powerless is to make the money they issue and use to pay for everything worthless.

[JumpCrisscross]

> number of countries where life imprisonment is available

All of those, I believe, have the death penalty for e.g. corporate fraud.

This is a bit of a nut job hypothesis. States don’t collapse because of private counterfeiting. It simply becomes an economic nuisance. The budget given to anti-counterfeiting in any country is generally a rounding error compared with other policing.

[lukan]

"since large scale counterfeit operations is one of the few crimes that is an attack on the state itself"

If somebody beats someone else up, to teach him a lesson - this is also a direct attack on the state itself, the monopoly on violence.

But "large scale"? This old man with his crude tools and bad 1 dollar notes?

"The press adored him and the public sympathized with him. "

That is probably the bit, that got them engaged. Cannot have this set as an example that works out for someone.

[denkmoon]

> this is also a direct attack on the state itself, the monopoly on violence.

not quite, the state monopolises _legitimate_ violence. it delegitimises the violence of individuals by making assault etc illegal.

[hx8]

I don't fully understand how this isn't a monopoly on violence.

[bombcar]

Saying “the state has a monopoly on violence” is basically saying the state is a state. I’m not sure it ever really provides much real insight.

[noduerme]

Maybe it's just that any investigation that takes 10 years is by definition one of the more expensive ones.

[gradschool]

A small leak can sink a ship. The fake dollars weren't knowingly accepted. If public confidence in the value of money is lost, we're all in big trouble. The Secret Service was right to pursue the case zealously.

[HarHarVeryFunny]

I think the public take a pretty pragmatic view on this and don't care as long as they are not losing money on it. A few years ago it was estimated that 3% or so of the 1 pound coins in the UK were fake (there is now a more secure coin type); AFAIK the quality was pretty good, so they weren't glaringly obvious, and it seems no-one really cared - if the supermarket or pub would accept it, then it's effectively money, right?

[dataflow]

> if the supermarket or pub would accept it, then it's effectively money, right?

Only long as you both accept the same shared understanding of what it is. If one of you believes it's counterfeit and the other doesn't (whether it actually is or isn't!)... then it's not effectively money, no. For example, I don't know about you, but I sure as hell wouldn't knowingly pass off a counterfeit on the basis that the supermarket would accept it.

[HarHarVeryFunny]

I think it depends... if everyone else was treating the counterfeits same as genuine coins, so you're continually getting a mix in change, and no-one is rejecting them when you pass them on, then I think most people would just do the same. If you are not going to get in trouble by spending one (assuming you even noticed in the first place - probably not), and can be pretty much 100% assured it'll be accepted, then it'd be a bit perverse to squint at every coin you handle.

Fiat currency has no inherent value - it's just a system of communal acceptance. If everyone accepts the fake coins then they ARE money. As you note, the system only breaks down if some people stop accepting it.

It'd be interesting if someone from the UK could chime in: Were you aware of all the fake pounds circulating (1 in 30!) ? Did you notice if you got one? Did you care?

[dataflow]

> I think it depends... if everyone else was treating the counterfeits same as genuine coins, so you're continually getting a mix in change, and no-one is rejecting them when you pass them on, then I think most people would just do the same.

I think you're directly affirming this: it's fine as long as you both accept the same shared understanding of what it is.

[graemep]

£1 coins are a small proportion of the value of cash in circulation and cash is a small proportion of the money supply. Coins are easier to counterfeit than notes so even if other coins have similar rates of counterfeits its a small problem in context.

[gosub100]

exactly, plus punishment also acts as a deterrent.

[latexr]

We have the benefit of hindsight. The Secret Service couldn’t know the true scale of the operation, how many fake bills were in circulation, and that they were only singles.

[ImPostingOnHN]

> If the dollars were accepted by the general population, it would cause an infinitesimal increase in inflation of no consequence to others.

That would depend on how many counterfeit dollars were out there, which the authorities did not know at that point of the investigation

[Salgat]

To set an example, as a deterrent to larger operations. If they go after even the smallest impact counterfeiters, it leaves no room for a plausible level at which an operation can safely run under, no matter how small.