[metacritic12]

Seems like it's not pleasant, and the author says in theory it could be as low of a bar as getting into a heated argument; but the author never discloses his actual charge, which I think is critical context.

If he stabbed someone and got this treatment, it would be very different than if he had a loud but normal argument you might see in any big box store in the US.

That he doesn't go on to protest why he got locked up makes me think it was something more serious.

Some time ago (can't easily find it anymore) there was a expose on UK prisons, which was interesting without even knowing what crime the prisoner was convicted of, but turns out it was abuse of a relative.

[aloisklink]

The author mentions it in a YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2epTf2IW1g (at the 2:20 mark).

But essentially, somebody else sent her a package with something illegal in it that she didn't ask for. The police took her passport for a few months and searched her house. After a few months, she got her passport returned to her, she left Japan temporarily, but when she came back, they arrested her "to ensure [she] wouldn't flee while they finished the investigation".

She also mentioned it was "the most normal type of thing you can think of"; it might have been something like pseudoephedrine/Sudafed. That's a common over-the-counter drug in other countries but it's very illegal here in Japan (unless it's under 10%, or you buy it from Japan)!

Edit: Importing pseudoephedrine above 10% concentrations is illegal, but you can legally buy some higher concentrations over-the-counter while in Japan.

[Aurornis]

> somebody else sent her a package with something illegal in it that she didn't ask for.

> She also mentioned it was "the most normal type of thing you can think of";

This doesn't really answer the question, though. It's frustrating to try to interpret these stories with a lot of writing and video describing everything except the crucial detail about what the charges were for.

I don't think she's trying to withhold information to avoid contaminating the case because she's spilling other details all over the place that could be used to influence the case. Yet the key piece of information that is supposedly "the most normal" isn't revealed

[ninjin]

> It's frustrating to try to interpret these stories with a lot of writing and video describing everything except the crucial detail about what the charges were for.

Is it really a crucial detail though? As someone having lived in Japan for a long time, I see no reason why we can not discuss the fact that civil rights and detention treatment in Japan are lacking without resorting to "Do they deserve it in light of what they were suspected for?". I personally see no reason why suspects can not deserve decent sleep, meal, bedding, etc. even if they may be Shoko Asahara himself.

For the record, I have not watched any video or read anything else about this individual. Nor do I intend to.

[Aurornis]

> Is it really a crucial detail though?

Literally the central trigger point of the story.

> For the record, I have not watched any video or read anything else about this individual. Nor do I intend to.

Then I can see why you're not interested in the details

[idle_zealot]

> Literally the central trigger point of the story

The fact that you and other insist on this really gets at the crux of this whole problem. There are two notable positions on criminality and punishment: yours, which is broadly that the justice system exists, at least in part, to deliver righteous punishment on the deserving, and the position of those appalled by the treatment here, which is that the purpose of the justice system is primarily to protect people, and then to deliver predictable, proportionate punishment of those found guilty to disincentivize criminal behavior. If you think that torture of someone detained but not found guilty might be justifiable if they're accused of a sufficiently heinous crime then you have an illiberal position that can and will be used to enable abuse of the criminal justice system to inflict extralegal punishment on anyone for any reason.

[ehnto]

I think this is even getting ahead of itself, since the story is writing that you can be treated this way without yet being charged. Not knowing if the author "deserves" it puts you in the shoes of the detainee in either case, since the detention comes before assigning guilt.

[Aurornis]

That is not my position at all and it’s dishonest to project it upon my writings.

I said this is an important detail to the story because it’s literally the central trigger point. For as many details as she’s willing to share, include admissions that could theoretically impact legal proceedings, excluding the core charge from the story raises suspicions about the trustworthiness of the narrator.

To be clear I do not support the treatment as reported. However the omission of this one key detail is a calculated omission by the author, where we’re supposed to both believe it’s entirely normal and benign but at the same time it’s also something that must be withheld from this story?

[true_religion]

For most people, the critique of Japan is because their own countries used to operate jails in this way.

So rationalizations of why it’s appropriate because the person was suspected of XYZ isn’t going to land with them and is largely irrelevant.

But I don’t mind playing devils advocate.

Should the justice system force confessions out of murderers? No, because they are only potential murderers and we have historically been able to get innocent parties to confess. People with vulnerability such as mental health problems are even more likely to give false confessions. The goal of requesting testimony should be honesty not compliance.

This logic applies as well the drug dealer, drug users, and jay walkers. It’s a moral principle disconnected from any specific geography so even if we are not Japanese and have no intention to interact with Japan, we can say they have not lived up to that principle.

[arcfour]

It doesn't matter though. Nobody should be treated like this, especially not before their guilt has been proven.

[commandersaki]

I think there is a happy path though and she stuffed it up by not responding for a request for information while she went overseas as they were investigating the matter. When she returned they put her in detention as they deemed her a flight risk. I don't know what information they asked, but it would seem prudent to provide it or say you don't have it or you are overseas and cannot get it at the moment, rather than simply ignore it.

[pas]

reasonable suspicion is a pretty well established concept. importing controlled substances would get an arrest warrant easily anywhere if law enforcement decides to pursue the case.

the administive pretrial detention is also pretty common, especially nowadays with the ICE craze.

nobody should be treated like this, agreed, but that doesn't mean that the process has no correlation to the level of guilt established and the certainty of it.

(the real problem is that it's way too many bullshit laws.)

[commandersaki]

Nor do I intend to.

I watched a little bit. She went overseas and the police asked for some information and she didn't respond. When she returned they deemed her a flight risk because she hadn't responded to the things they were asking.

[ninjin]

Fair I suppose. I guess one can treat this either as a personal story (although frustratingly scattered across multiple places and incomplete) or as a description of a single instance of an arrest in Japan.

[fzeroracer]

Is it a crucial detail? Can you explain why you need to know what she was arrested for, given that she says the charges were dropped?

[commandersaki]

Suppose it was CSAM in the mail, do you think a delicate touch is still warranted? The context matters.

[Aeolun]

It is? Because the whole ‘is it awful’ thing hinges pretty strongly on how many options you were given to avoid it before going there.

If I had the police over, was an ass, had them come back, was an ass again. Then at some point they’re going to just think I’m the person that’d run away while they conduct their investigation.

I’m sure bad policemen exist in Japan, but all the ones I’ve met have been very friendly and reasonable.

[saagarjha]

Being a jerk to the police does not seem like it warrants them denying you of your rights.

[Aeolun]

Which rights? This isn't the US.

[anigbrowl]

civil rights and detention treatment in Japan are lacking

The main difference I see are that police can hold you for a much longer period before bringing you in front of a judge and the bail conditions. Regarding the specific detention conditions, they do not strike me as worse than American jails.

[girvo]

But… it doesn’t matter? Even if it was some very illegal drug, that doesn’t change the fact that this detention system (and Japans justice system in general) is quite inhumane.

[itake]

At the end of the blog post, it says the charges were eventually dropped.

23 days of her life gone over dropped charges.

[ninjin]

Likely some sort of stimulant as you point out. It is hardly the first time either as there have been public cases like this numerous times over the last two decades. Some cases even ending with deportation. The one I remember most vividly was someone carrying an unlabeled bottle of ADHD medication that had been sent to them while they were in South Korea by their pharmacist mum in the US; that they then ran afoul of when entering Japan. Similarly, there was a case at the University of Tokyo in the 00s, where an overseas student got sent an (allegedly) unprompted package with cannabis (not a stimulant though) from friends abroad. Allegedly, they were expelled and we got university-wide, anti-drug campaigns with memorable slogans like: "Illicit drugs are illegal".

Due to their history, laws regarding stimulants are harsher in Japan than in many other places in the world [1] and this frequently takes people by surprise. Not that Japanese laws related to illegal drugs are lenient to begin with.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_drug_trade_in_Japan

[krackers]

Skimming the video there's also important unstated context that the person was non-white foreigner, had tattoos, and on visa. It's possible that the combination made an ambiguous grey-area situation much worse.

[sidewndr46]

I am always amazed at details like this. Who would voluntarily go back to this kind of situation?

[anigbrowl]

"the most normal type of thing you can think of"

I can believe that (and your sudafed guess is likely correct), but then why be obscure about it, when you could say 'turns out xyz is illegal in Japan, do not let your well meaning friends/family mail you medicine of any kind'? However, I don't watch the whole video. I know this hyper-edited style is popular nowadays but to me it feels like advertising/bait and I don't want to invest the energy to parse it.

[gravypod]

What do you do when you have a bad flu or cold if you don't have pseudoephedrine?

[aloisklink]

You can still easily buy it here, but the over-the-counter pills are always mixed with other ingredients to make it more difficult to convert them into amphetamines.

E.g. Contac 600 Plus can be found in basically all drug stores and it has 120mg of Pseudoephedrine, 100mg Caffeine, 8mg Chlorpheniramine, and 0.4mg of Belladonna Extract. It sounds like it'll actually be illegal to import into Japan, since 120/(120 + 100 + 8 + 0.4) is over 10%, but I've previously just walked into a drug store and bought a packet.

[gravypod]

Ok, that makes sense. I am assuming it is not common to be arrested for possessing this kind of over the counter remedy?

[aloisklink]

Not for the ones you buy in Japan, since those are legal.

But, it's not unheard of to get randomly stopped by the police and searched, especially in touristy areas like train stations. Unless you're a Japanese citizen, you have to show ID, and although the searches are optional, most people agree to them.

For customs, usually a few people from each plane are searched.

Anecdotally, if you're a tourist, they're usually looking for medicine that was legal outside of Japan, but illegal within Japan, with small amounts leading to being detained for 23 days (like in this blog post). And if they decide to prosecute you, you'd probably get a suspended sentence (so no prison time), but you'd get deported and a temporary ban from coming back to Japan.

[gravypod]

> with small amounts leading to being detained for 23 days (like in this blog post)

This seems ultimately like a very bad sales pitch for the tourism industry in Japan. I had thought I wanted to go to Japan but if I can accidentally, without malice, be thrown in a prison for 20 days that seems like a bad system.

I can't imagine the international relations of the ruling classes of various countries to the UAE would be trending in a positive direction if they arrested and punished people for walking off a plane with airplane bottles of alcohol.

[tgsovlerkhgsel]

You wait it out. You can also take some alternatives (e.g. Sinupret) that may or may not have any effect, while waiting it out.

[themadturk]

Probably the same thing you do in the states if you have high blood pressure: make do with lesser medications, pain killers, lots of liquids, and push through it.

[gravypod]

Warning: This is not medical advice, I am a nerd on the internet not a doctor

For what it is worth different countries have vastly different recommendations for HBP and these drugs. I recommend discussing with the pharmacists in your country.

In the US I have been told it's a strict "never", in Ireland I was told that it wouldn't have a measurable effect on blood pressure. I've also measured my personal blood pressure (pre-hypertension to stage 1) and have not been able to measure a difference in blood pressure.

[fauchletenerum]

Blow your nose?

[disillusioned]

They _do_ specifically protest, and it's crazy that they're able to detain you like this from an accusation while they build a case, even if you're innocent. In the US, barring flight risks and past history or cases of real malice or violence or an ongoing threat, you can at least typically make bail, AND the conditions in a jail are generally far better and less strict than this:

>Both cases were ultimately dropped and the second arrest was essentially tied to the first and shouldn’t have even been possible. But because of how the system works weather it’s a viable reason or not, they can still trap you in there for a time while the case is being reviewed. I met others who where there for shorter and much longer periods of time. The worst part was knowing i was innocent. After it’s all said and done you walk out and they act as if nothing happened. Not only was this was all extremely traumatizing but it cost me a HUGE of money that I really did not have and caused irreversible damage to my life.

[lazyasciiart]

> In the US, barring flight risks and past history or cases of real malice or violence or an ongoing threat, you can at least typically make bail

The literal majority of people in US jails are there not because they have been convicted of anything but because they were given a bail amount they couldn’t afford to pay, which is a deliberate strategy by the courts when there is no justification to refuse bail. This can look like a $500 cash bail set on a homeless guy charged with resisting arrest (aka being arrested). Many of them are innocent and are trapped and have their lives ruined in exactly the way this guy describes. (We assume that many of them are innocent because when someone pays their bail, more than 50% of cases are simply dismissed as soon as they leave jail. The expectation is that they will just plead guilty because otherwise they are stuck in jail for months waiting for a trial).

https://bailproject.org/data/unlocking-the-truth/

[baggy_trough]

> We assume that many of them are innocent because when someone pays their bail, more than 50% of cases are simply dismissed as soon as they leave jail.

This sounds like a very dubious assumption.

[AnimalMuppet]

Perhaps it is, but it explains the data. What is your alternative explanation?

[Amezarak]

The legal system doesn't have the resources to move forward with the case and decides it isn't a priority. I've seen this happen many times with people I know committing violent felonies.

Even for smaller examples it happens all the time. Half the time you can completely get out of traffic tickets by showing up to court to plead not guilty. They dismiss the case because it's not worth the time.

[pessimizer]

> They dismiss the case because it's not worth the time.

I don't know what this means in the context of the US justice system. They're not paid on commission. They're being paid to be there no matter what happens.

They dismiss the case because the cop didn't bother to show up, or they didn't have any evidence against your defense. The reason you (as the person who got ticketed) don't show up to court is because you know you have nothing to say, or because it's not worth it to you when getting out of the ticket isn't enough pay for 3-4 hours of your time. The only reason you do show up is because you think you have a defense.

If you can't make bail, you're showing up no matter how stupid the charge is.

edit: I have personal experience (from a few decades ago) of being forced to face stupid charges. It was a game. They inflated the potential sentence to 3-5 years through silly charges designed for just that, and offered me a plea bargain of no time, no fine, and expungement from my record in 6 months. I pled guilty. If I hadn't been bailed out, I would have had to wait two weeks in jail for that moronic, depressing event. I pled guilty because it was easy to do, even if I hadn't done anything. If I had sat in jail for two weeks, I might have pled guilty even if it involved a week of jail time and a fine, just to get out.

Kalief Browder spent almost 3 years in Riker's Island awaiting trial just to have the charges dropped. People on here told me that showed that the justice system worked. I said that his life was destroyed by this, and he would probably end up dead soon. I got downvoted furiously. He'd killed himself 2 years later.

[brendoelfrendo]

The thing is, this is pretty standard treatment over in Japan. As the blog poster says, the charge against them was ultimately dropped, but not before they were held for over 30 days. The 23 day timer on charges is, as they said, something that is often exploited by the police; they can add charges later to reset the clock. While this is going on, you're often pressured to sign a confession. You may get offered a comparatively short or lenient punishment for confessing, as compared to potentially months of detention while the police perform their investigation and decide what to charge you with. It's a big part of why the conviction rate over there is so high; not confessing to a crime, even when innocent, can carry a punishment worse than conviction. Of course, then you have to consider that you now have a criminal record, so someone who lives in Japan may feel pressured to confess to avoid prolonged detention, but that can have other effects on them in the future.

[lazyasciiart]

Same in the USA. This is what “prosecutor deals” are for: plead guilty and we’ll let you off with a year in jail, make us hold a trial and the judge will give you ten years.

[brendoelfrendo]

Right, but I intentionally avoided making that comparison because of the way the US justice system works. There are more escape hatches for someone who has been charged to be released while awaiting trial: bail, release on recognizance, habeas petitions, etc. These don't really exist in the same way in Japan.

[tptacek]

It is not in fact the same in the USA. You cannot be held indefinitely without a judicial hearing and without access to a lawyer in the US. You can in Japan, and in fact that's the norm.

[lazyasciiart]

Tell Kalief Browder that. Oh wait, he killed himself after being held for three years without trial because prosecutors 'weren't ready' to actually try him for the accusation of theft, and without the option of bail because he had previously violated probation as a child.

edit: ohhhh oops weasel wording. You're right, he did in fact have multiple judicial hearings! It's functionally irrelevant since none of them ever had the power to release him or find him innocent.

[kelnos]

It doesn't matter what her charge was. Even (alleged/suspected) serial murderers and rapists should be treated humanely and not experience psychological torture.

And also remember this treatment is at the point where they haven't been charged with anything, haven't been tried in court, and haven't been convicted.

The US's justice system is certainly lacking in many, many ways, but wow, this is barbaric. And it's designed for one thing: high conviction rates, regardless of guilt or innocence.

[insane_dreamer]

> The US's justice system is certainly lacking in many, many ways, but wow, this is barbaric.

Still not as bad as what we've seen ICE do, for (allegedly) overstaying your visa, no less: no due process, children being separated from their parents and whereabouts unknown, horrible warehouse-like conditions, denial of medical care, people dying in custody, etc. Have any Japanese citizens been shot dead by police? [0]

And that's before we even get to talking about the injustices of the "war on drugs"; are Japanese police shooting and killing young black males in the back?

Yeah, the article is horrific, but I think Japan still has a ways to go to fall as low as the US these days unless you're white with money.

I will say though that _in principle_ the US' justice system is much better because it's based on presumption of innocence, due process, rights, etc. Japan uses a so-called "inquisitorial" system, based on the French legal system, where the judge is also the investigator, with detention while the investigation moves forward.

It's just that the reality in the US is different, depending on your visa status, color of your skin, and income level.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_annual_...

[bigiain]

> The US's justice system is certainly lacking in many, many ways, but wow, this is barbaric.

I am lucky enough to have a lot of middle aged middle class white male privilege.

I wonder how many minority people in the US have much worse opinions and life experience of the justice system than you're implying?

I wonder how many people consider typical ICE arrests and detention to be at least as "barbaric" and "psychological torture" as what's described in the article?

I wonder how many young African American males (and their families) look at the private for-profit prison system and conclude the US justice system and policing are designed for "high conviction rates, regardless of guilt or innocence.

[9x39]

>the private for-profit prison system

92% of the prison system is government-run, no need to exaggerate.

>conclude the US justice system and policing are designed for "high conviction rates, regardless of guilt or innocence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate

You can see that's not a particularly useful metric to evaluate a legal system (and in the US, states, tribal, federal differ).

Americans ostensibly have the bill of rights in their favor, while Japan doesn't. Sure, you can't be indigent if you expect a vigorous defense from the state, but your odds are good if your case isn't hopeless, and many are - the incidence of plea deals typically reflects this.

[omnimus]

Prisons in US might be run by gov but private companies profit heavily on services provided to these facilities. Basically everything possible is outsourced - commissary, food, healthcare, labour…

Add that to highest incarceration rate in the world - around 600 people per 100k residents (japan for example is 40 per 100k).

You get what people call for-profit prison system. It's not some secret or controversial claim.

[9x39]

>Basically everything possible is outsourced - commissary, food, healthcare, labour…

That's as true at the DMV as it is for the DOD and BOP, isn't it? Even Japan's system buys goods from the private sector and hires people.

The stated purpose of the prison system(s) is to store people away from communities as part of the justice process until they can reenter society. The evidence of that is clear in the inmates held, something to the tune of 1-1.5m when you add up state and federal prisons. I think it's straightforward to explain a higher incarceration rate than Japan through a higher crime rate than Japan.

Incarcerations (using yours) - US is ~15 times higher US: 600/100k JP: 040/100k

Murder (2023 [1]) - US is ~25 times higher US: 5.76/100k JP: 0.23/100k

Yes, there are more crimes than homicide, but the US trends more criminal and more violent than JP. Our demographics and culture are different than JP.

>It's not some secret or controversial claim.

It's a claim without direct proof relying on inference where people will see what they want to see like a Rorschach test, similar to calling a conflict a 'war for oil' or the broader description of the military-industrial complex.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1374211/g7-country-homic...

[saltwatercowboy]

No one is disagreeing with you, but we're not talking about that just now.

[Capricorn2481]

We're not? Someone compared the two directly.

[hulitu]

> The US's justice system is certainly lacking in many, many ways, but wow, this is barbaric

Guantanamo, "secret" CIA "prisons" around the world.

[agnishom]

I strongly suspect that the author's legal counsel advised them not to discuss their actual charge in explicit detail

[bitwize]

Jack Henry Abbott was an American prisoner who corresponded with the author Norman Mailer, who successfully got a collection of his letters published as In the Belly of the Beast, which contain scathing critiques of the American justice and prison systems based on his own experiences therewith.

Mailer also successfully advocated for Abbott's parole. Six weeks later, Abbott stabbed to death the manager of a restaurant he was eating at after an argument.

[Waterluvian]

> loud but normal argument you might see in any big box store in the US.

I always assumed this kind of behaviour was cherry picked on social media. How “normal” is it actually?!

[kube-system]

In most of the US -- completely unheard of.

In particularly bad neighborhoods in the US -- it happens sometimes.

Depending on what kind of life you live in the US, it could be completely foreign to you, or it could be normal.

[panny]

Completely normal. Happens all the time. My plane was delayed this week because of an unruly passenger on the plane before mine at the gate. My plane had to be diverted into another state while they sorted him out. The day after I landed, I was walking to get something to eat, and there was a bum fight at the road entrance of a Target. They had a disagreement about who could panhandle there. On the way home, some guy climbed the fence and got on the runway. They don't know who he is though, he was sucked through the engine of a plane.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/may/09/frontier-air...

Anyone who says this stuff isn't normal in America doesn't get out much apparently. Living in the US is nuts.

[saagarjha]

People do not normally run out onto the tarmac and get sucked into the engine of a plane. This made the news because of how rare it is.

[panny]

>Friday’s episode at Denver’s airport came one day after a Delta Airline employee died on Thursday night at Orlando’s international airport when a vehicle struck a jet bridge next to an airplane with passengers onboard, as the local news outlet WESH reported.

>Meanwhile, on 3 May, a United Airlines plane arriving in Newark, New Jersey, from Venice, Italy, clipped a delivery truck and a light pole, which in turn struck a Jeep. Only the delivery truck driver was injured, but the plane was damaged extensively and the NTSB classified the case as an accident while also opening an investigation.

From the article. "Rare" occurrences... three times a week. In the meantime, Japan runs an airport for 30 years and never even loses one piece of luggage. The US is not on the same level as Japan. Any insistence otherwise is just cope.

https://www.npr.org/2024/05/24/nx-s1-4951240/this-japanese-a...

[saagarjha]

You can't be serious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Aviation_accidents_an...

[panny]

Thank you for bolstering my argument.

[kQq9oHeAz6wLLS]

It's quite rare.

Except at Waffle House.

[machomaster]

And at Walmart. And at McDonalds. And at Burger King. And at...

Bacically, it is not rare at all. Especially among certain American demographic.

[9x39]

Changing customer sentiment is definitely part of it.

Another lens is to look at is state violence rates: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...

[samrus]

> If he stabbed someone and got this treatment, it would be very different

I dont think so. I think innocent until proven guilty is the right way to go. Because all the police know is that he is accused of stabbing someone. Whether he actually did it or not, a court of law will decide that while he is present to be tried. Until then You cant punish someone like this over an accusation. You can deny bail if the person might be dangerous, but you cant punish them

This is bullshit and the japanese should be ashamed of having such a system while being considered a part of the civilized world. If this was china people would be rightfully losing their mind

[Aurornis]

Innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean someone gets to go free until their court date. It depends on the crime, the flight risk, and the supporting evidence that police are able to collect.

There are many examples of police letting suspects go due to lack of evidence and then later discovering they let the wrong person go. These stories generate a lot of outrage in cases where there's public interest or a news story, but this is the reality of crime: You don't always have enough evidence to justify detaining someone, but the police's job is to quickly try to find enough evidence to find the right perpetrator

[arcfour]

Okay, but maybe we can feed them actual food, let them shower daily, and give them bedding? Are you opposed to this?

[Aurornis]

Of course not. That has nothing to do with my comment.

[samrus]

> Innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean someone gets to go free until their court date.

I know what bail is and that is should denied in certain cases. Even if bail should be denied for an accused stabbing, there are alot of other things innocent until proven guilty implies that japan doesnt meet the mark on, like feeding people proprrly and not mentally torturing them

[cush]

> That he doesn't go on to protest why he got locked up makes me think it was something more serious

Most of the post explains how she wasn’t allowed to do the things you’re suggesting she do, and at the end it explains how her charges were dropped.

[bsimpson]

It surprises me how many people are responding to an article that includes:

> You can not bring or keep anything including a bra or even your own underwear.

presuming the author is male.

[Ferret7446]

I assume a female wouldn't distinguish bra and underwear? I also don't know why it matters either way, whether the author is presumed male or female

[kelnos]

> I assume a female wouldn't distinguish bra and underwear?

Perhaps this is a regional thing, but in my experience, they absolutely do.

[bsimpson]

I presumed a man wouldn't have been concerned with a foreign jail's rules for bras.

[actionfromafar]

Arrested not convicted.

[wisty]

In the US, it's seen as a God-given truth that no innocent person should ever be punished. Partly because it was founded (in part) by oppressed minorities fleeing states where the were constantly harassed by authorities. (Irony - the US's approach hardly fixed the issue).

But is it OK to risk punishing a few innocent people if it greatly reduces the amount of suffering caused by crime?

[pdpi]

> Partly because it was founded (in part) by oppressed minorities fleeing states where the were constantly harassed by authorities

Nah, it's a principle that was brought in from English common law. E.g Blackstone's Ratio[0] was published at roughly the same time as the American revolution was playing out, and cited plenty of earlier formulations of the same principle. Habeas Corpus was codified in the Magna Carta, but predated it as a concept.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio

[wisty]

This was on the tail of sectarian conflicts (e.g. Cromwell) in the UK, and people fleeing them to the US.

You're right than I'm oversimplifying it, and being very US centric.

[card_zero]

Now I'm entertaining myself by reframing the rebel barons (magna carta) as an oppressed minority, fleeing into their castles where they get harassed by siege engines.

[lazyasciiart]

It is not seen that way in the US except during high school civics classes. There have been multiple people executed by the state who were publicly known to be innocent at the time. https://www.texastribune.org/2026/04/30/texas-james-broadnax...

[pessimizer]

> In the US, it's seen as a God-given truth that no innocent person should ever be punished.

In the US, just as in Japan, as soon as you are arrested they begin punishing you. If there were a real assumption of innocence, jail would be pleasant and comfortable, and if you were WFH you wouldn't miss a day. There is a material presumption of guilt, even if there's some sort of ethereal theoretical presumption of innocence.

Instead, you're in a horrible cell, eating horrible food, dressed in a humiliating way, treated in a humiliating way, and exposed to dangerous people. Unless you can pay a bond which you will never get back (because you are too poor to pay bail.) You haven't been convicted of anything. The fine you're facing might be lower than your bond, and the time you're facing might be shorter than the time you'd have to wait in jail to go to court.

[9x39]

>if there were a real assumption of innocence, jail would be pleasant and comfortable, and if you were WFH you wouldn't miss a day.

At some point, you have to hold the person and figure out if they're a danger or not. Not everything is an unpaid ticket, and jail is probably unpleasant because everyone involved is unpleasant. Has it ever been otherwise?

>pay a bond which you will never get back (because you are too poor to pay bail.)

Why would you not get your bond back if you went to court as required? It would be forfeit if someone stops showing up to hearings, which is a requirement of their bond. It's to get them to return to court instead of just fleeing.

[wisty]

IIRC the US has a bizzare system where you get a loan for bail from a private loan shark, so you pay a (not refunded) bond to the loan shark who pays the bail, then the loan shark (sorry, bail lender) eats the loss (or hires bounty hunters) if you skip town.

[9x39]

Mmm, yes, common for indigent defendees. Let's say you get accused of something serious and are given a $50k bond. You either have to to put up $50k, hire a bail bondsman who puts up 10% of that in cash, or sit in jail.

The bondsman guarantees your appearance, but often charges tons of interest or other fees that cost you that $5k, plus whatever collateral you can muster.

Apparently a handful of states bypass the bondsman approach by allowing defendants to post the 10% of the bond in cash to the court itself, and then refunding it minus small fees if the defendant makes their appearances.

Overall, I see where defendants come from but the courts want appearances, and failures to appear aren't rare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_to_appear

(don't go to court if you can avoid it)

[kelnos]

> In the US, it's seen as a God-given truth that no innocent person should ever be punished.

That's a rather rose-tinted view of criminal justice here... I do hear that sentiment a lot here, but it's just words, and as you sort of hint at, the reality doesn't match the words.

> But is it OK to risk punishing a few innocent people if it greatly reduces the amount of suffering caused by crime?

That's a big philosophical question. I argue that no, that's not ok, and I'd rather guilty people go free (and possibly hurt others) than put an innocent person behind bars.

My wife was traveling in Central America last year, and befriended another traveler from a nearby country. This woman told my wife that her country used to be fairly dangerous (both for locals and tourists) due to the proliferation of criminal gangs, but that the current president had mobilized the police/military and aggressively cleaned things up. She mentioned that a large number of innocent people got caught in the crossfire and and were now rotting in jail, but if that was the price of safety for everyone else, she was ok with it.

I had a very visceral negative reaction to this story, and found it disappointing that someone would hold that opinion. But I suppose it's a lot easier to take that stance when it's not you or someone you care about being falsely accused and sent to prison.

So I think that's another way to look at your question: would you be ok going to prison as an innocent person, as a known, understood, and societally-accepted side-effect of a safer society? If the answer is no, then you can't expect anyone else to do it. And even if the answer is yes, that's still a personal decision/opinion, and still can't expect anyone else to do it.

(For the record: hell no, I would not be ok with that.)

[wisty]

> would you be ok going to prison as an innocent person, as a known, understood, and societally-accepted side-effect of a safer society?

Yes, more so than if it was someone else.

[naniwaduni]

> I had a very visceral negative reaction to this story, and found it disappointing that someone would hold that opinion. But I suppose it's a lot easier to take that stance when it's not you or someone you care about being falsely accused and sent to prison.

I have to imagine that from her point of view, it's a lot easier to take the stance that you'd rather see guilty people go free than put an innocent person behind bars when it's not your neighborhood with the dangerous criminal gangs....

[nephihaha]

Back in the 19th century. De Tocqueville talks about American justice favouring the rich since they could post bail and the poor could not. I have seen documentaries about US bail hostels and some of them seem like horrific places as bad as prisons in some other countries and this is before you've been found guilty of anything.

[lazyasciiart]

> I have seen documentaries about US bail hostels

I’m not familiar with this term. Is that an old thing?

[OneDeuxTriSeiGo]

It's a British term for halfway houses specifically for people out on bail.

[lazyasciiart]

Fascinating - apparently they are for people who need a “suitable address” to qualify for bail, generally because they are otherwise homeless. The US doesn’t require any fixed address for bail in general and only the most organized and progressive court systems do anything except let them out the jail door wearing whatever they were arrested in, and lock it behind them: frequently around 10pm once someone gets done with the paperwork.

[nephihaha]

No, I'm not meaning this here. I'm meaning people who cannot afford bail so are kept imprisoned, before even going to trial.

[charcircuit]

The US only requires a jury to believe someone is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It is accepted that there will be false positives where an innocent person will falsely get convicted due to this, but the hope is that the trade off is worth it.

[PieTime]

Basically you’re talking about implementing The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas. Many innocent people have been sentenced to death in the US. The idea that jail or punishment solves crime also has no basis in fact.

[actionfromafar]

I don’t believe in the premise.

[amarant]

Japan has a conviction rate of 99.8%. arrested and convicted is pretty much the same thing over there

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Jap...

[vchuravy]

Arrested is not the same as convicted. I lived in Japan for a few years, and I have heard of similar situations to what the article describes.

In Japan you can be arrested while an investigation is in process, only afterwards you will be indicted. Additionally, Japan does not permit defendants to post bail prior to an indictment.

Yes Japan has a really high conviction rate, but that is because they indict only cases were a conviction is likely.

Arrests don't need to lead to the person being indicted.

[applfanboysbgon]

It's actually not. You can be arrested and then released without charges, which is not a conviction but does not factor into the conviction rate statistic.

[glenstein]

I was going to say the same thing. OP in this case would not count toward either percentage, what you have to wonder is how many people get charges dropped who get put through the ringer.

It also makes the act of accusing incredibly powerful, and you have to wonder what threshold there is and whose accusations matter, because this severe punishment for dropped charges feels extremely powerful.

[thaumasiotes]

The author doesn't seem to have been charged with anything, so her release doesn't affect the 'conviction rate' - but she was arrested.

By comparison, you might consider https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/14/fewer-tha... :

> In fiscal year 2022, only 290 of 71,954 defendants in federal criminal cases – about 0.4% – went to trial and were acquitted

[ranger_danger]

> Japan has a conviction rate of 99.8%

So does the US.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/06/11/only-2-of...

[lokar]

Not surprising if you can detain people for long periods under harsh conditions without charging them.

If they confess, it counts as a win. If they don’t, you release them but it’s not a loss (as they were not charged).

[beejiu]

Of charges, not arrests.

[actionfromafar]

And your point is?

[ranger_danger]

The author acknowledges that it still ruins people's lives and is completely unfair.

[guiambros]

Not sure why you were downvoted. From the last paragraph:

"I spent a total of 35 days here. The first arrest was 3 days of processing, the initial 10 days followed by the 10 days extension for a total of 23 days before my case was dropped. But the same time my case was dropped my accusers found a another reason to issue a second arrest keeping me there for an additional 12 days!

Both cases were ultimately dropped and the second arrest was essentially tied to the first and shouldn’t have even been possible."

[laughing_man]

In what country is getting arrested pleasant?

Japan is probably worse than Northern Europe, but it's still pretty high on "if I had to be arrested, I'd rather it was here" list.

[arcfour]

I think there's an enormous difference between an "unpleasant experience" and "active torture."

[jaredklewis]

This take is insane.

The charges could be very serious but I’m not sure what that has to do with anything, because being charged (or even just arrested) is not the same as being convicted. The author of this post claims both of their charges were dropped.

So, what, let’s torture anyone that _might_ have done something “serious?” No judge, no jury, just if a cop thinks you might have done something, straight into a psychological torture cell for weeks and months while they think about your case? wtf

Also, your description of their experience as “not pleasant” just kind of blows my mind. Like it was a long line at the DMV or something.