[Pooge]

I couldn't have said it better. I don't understand what they solve.

We need instant, free SEPA transfers around the clock. Switzerland is not part of SEPA but IBAN is used so it is trivial to send payments to foreign accounts that have an IBAN.

I always say that the day Trump decides to block Visa/MasterCard outside the US is the day we get instant payments and finally get rid of cards.

[pimeys]

In Germany we have free instant SEPA transfers. What Wero solves is that you can send money without giving your IBAN number, which at least in Germany can be used to take money from your account.

So you get standardized payment system where you scan a QR code or NFC tag with your bank app and the payment goes through IBAN and the system shows an approval of payment.

It still uses the same systems under the surface.

[Pooge]

> your IBAN number, which at least in Germany can be used to take money from your account

What the f#*k?!

[pimeys]

It's called SEPA direct debit. For some reason people don't want to use their web bank to pay for things, so what you usually do is you do a SEPA direct debit contract and the company takes the money from your account every month.

[ptman]

SEPA instant already exists. I think it guarantees sub-10s transactions. Unfortunately it is not the default.

[Pooge]

SEPA is only for Euros but there are countries that don't use Euros that still use IBAN (e.g. Switzerland and UK).

[hocuspocus]

The UK has had instant transfers for many years.

Switzerland since last summer, but banks aren't forced to expose the feature to retail customers yet, at least not for free. We could have had that 15 years ago if our government wasn't so afraid of upsetting the banking lobbies.

[hocuspocus]

> We need instant, free SEPA transfers around the clock.

We have? SCT inst has been rolled out almost everywhere

> Switzerland is not part of SEPA

We definitely are. Transfers in EUR from/to CH IBANs use SEPA rails. CHF accounts can also send or receive EUR transparently (usually at a bad FX rate, but it just works).

> I don't understand what they solve. [...]

> I always say that the day Trump decides to block Visa/MasterCard outside the US is the day we get instant payments and finally get rid of cards.

You answered your own question. We need pan-European payments systems on top of the existing banking infrastructure. Payments and transfers aren't the same thing. By moving to mobile wallets with QR code and NFC payments, this opens up interoperability beyond Europe too.

[Pooge]

> We have? SCT inst has been rolled out almost everywhere

That is true; I should have said "EEA" or "countries supporting IBAN".

> We definitely are. Transfers in EUR from/to CH IBANs use SEPA rails. CHF accounts can also send or receive EUR transparently (usually at a bad FX rate, but it just works).

Yes, which is exactly my point. We need it to work for CHF as well. Instant payments are not the norm and in fact UBS is charging for it.

> You answered your own question. We need pan-European payments systems on top of the existing banking infrastructure. Payments and transfers aren't the same thing. By moving to mobile wallets with QR code and NFC payments, this opens up interoperability beyond Europe too.

A payment should be a bank transfer. Anything more complicated is just something that is to be exploited by middle-men.

[hocuspocus]

This is a false dichotomy. You can have very cheap transaction fees, Pix is state-run and probably operates at a loss, with merchant fees as low as 0.2~0.3%. In comparison the cheapest card payment under the EEA interchange cap is probably slightly above 0.5% when you add scheme fees and PSP costs.

However businesses do require payment systems and not just barebones bank transfers. Except for high trust, low volume transactions such as buying a car, paying your rent...

[raron]

> A payment should be a bank transfer. Anything more complicated is just something that is to be exploited by middle-men.

I disagree with that. Payments (especially online and contactless ones) should have some form of buyer protection, chargeback and a way to handle fraudulent transaction, lost / stolen cards, etc.

[Pooge]

> buyer protection, chargeback and a way to handle fraudulent transaction

There is; it's called a bank.

[raron]

Maybe that's changes by country, but here bank transfers are basically final and can not be cancelled or recalled. Why would a bank cover your losses from their profits?

[hocuspocus]

Which has zero incentive to side with the other party. You pay by bank transfer, once the money is on the merchant's account, why would their bank ever agree to a refund in case of dispute? Now it's between you and the merchant, good luck with filing police reports and court claims especially abroad.

[Pooge]

In Switzerland there are a lot of cases where the bank will actually refund you if it was a fraudulent payment.