[Pooge]

> We have? SCT inst has been rolled out almost everywhere

That is true; I should have said "EEA" or "countries supporting IBAN".

> We definitely are. Transfers in EUR from/to CH IBANs use SEPA rails. CHF accounts can also send or receive EUR transparently (usually at a bad FX rate, but it just works).

Yes, which is exactly my point. We need it to work for CHF as well. Instant payments are not the norm and in fact UBS is charging for it.

> You answered your own question. We need pan-European payments systems on top of the existing banking infrastructure. Payments and transfers aren't the same thing. By moving to mobile wallets with QR code and NFC payments, this opens up interoperability beyond Europe too.

A payment should be a bank transfer. Anything more complicated is just something that is to be exploited by middle-men.

[hocuspocus]

This is a false dichotomy. You can have very cheap transaction fees, Pix is state-run and probably operates at a loss, with merchant fees as low as 0.2~0.3%. In comparison the cheapest card payment under the EEA interchange cap is probably slightly above 0.5% when you add scheme fees and PSP costs.

However businesses do require payment systems and not just barebones bank transfers. Except for high trust, low volume transactions such as buying a car, paying your rent...

[raron]

> A payment should be a bank transfer. Anything more complicated is just something that is to be exploited by middle-men.

I disagree with that. Payments (especially online and contactless ones) should have some form of buyer protection, chargeback and a way to handle fraudulent transaction, lost / stolen cards, etc.

[Pooge]

> buyer protection, chargeback and a way to handle fraudulent transaction

There is; it's called a bank.

[raron]

Maybe that's changes by country, but here bank transfers are basically final and can not be cancelled or recalled. Why would a bank cover your losses from their profits?

[hocuspocus]

Which has zero incentive to side with the other party. You pay by bank transfer, once the money is on the merchant's account, why would their bank ever agree to a refund in case of dispute? Now it's between you and the merchant, good luck with filing police reports and court claims especially abroad.

[Pooge]

In Switzerland there are a lot of cases where the bank will actually refund you if it was a fraudulent payment.

[hocuspocus]

Hu, no?

The most common scams nowadays involve social engineering to make people log into their online banking and transfer money, specifically because there's no way to revert transactions. The victims are typically 100% liable as they accept and authorize these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtbihSwrKhk

https://www.srf.ch/sendungen/kassensturz-espresso/kassenstur...

[Pooge]

Fair enough, you're right.