[JumpCrisscross]

> the students themselves don't have the artifacts to resubmit via email because they were done in Canvas

It’s so simple to send an e-mail to the student with relevant records on completion of a quiz or whatnot. They don’t do it, because they want to control the data. (And universities don’t insist on it for who knows what reason.)

[gucci-on-fleek]

I've never used Canvas before, but all the LMSes that I've used allow students to enable emails whenever anything is updated, including when grades are posted. This is off by default because it's often 10+ emails a day, because many teachers post notes once a day, and with 5 classes, that adds up pretty quick. I personally have it enabled because it's pretty manageable with some custom Outlook rules, but setting this up is well beyond the capabilities of most students.

[mbreese]

Canvas will send emails when grades are posted, but not what the grade is. Or at least that’s the way in the configurations I’ve seen. So, that wouldn’t help in a case where no one can access the canvas gradebook.

[trillic]

yup you just get an email saying "A new grade has been posted for EECS 420"

[skeeter2020]

...then all those clicks juice engagement and utilization numbers; why would someone want to just know their grade when they can use more clicks and custom apps to get the same info? </s>

The party line is probably something about "a lack of data security" with email, which would almost be funny given the current situation if it wasn't so stressful for those impacted...

[crazygringo]

No, students are already forced to use Canvas enough as is. This is enterprise software, it's not a consumer phone app. This is nothing to do with "engagement".

This is to do with FERPA which requires that student grades be kept private. There is a small but still a significant legal risk that someone else such as a parent or roommate could have access to a student's email. And so to avoid even the possibility of a court case, schools prefer to play it safe and display grades only to a user they can authenticate directly.

This doesn't have anything to do with common sense, it's simply about legal risk. And it's not about security in a broader sense, it's specifically about privacy FERPA legislation.

[trollbridge]

FERPA allows emailing confidential information to a student email on record if the university controls the email account. Most universities offer their own email service (and require using it) for this exact reason.

There is no more risk of access to email than there is to Canvas. They are usually secured by the same SSO, too.

However, congratulations for finding the exact dodge around implementing a useful feature. Back when I worked at a university, it was apparent we had a “toolbox” of reasons to deny requests we didn’t want to do: HIPAA, FERPA, ERISA, PCI, GLBA, Title IX, ADA.

“We can’t do that integration with student health services due to HIPAA concerns.”

“We can’t implement that sign up form due to FERPA.”

“We can’t update that site because we’d have to do so and be ADA compliant and that would cost too much.”

“Due to Dining Services’ server being in scope for PCI, we can’t run reports off of it.”

“Adding that ability to Student Affairs’ portfolio app would raise Title IX concerns.”

It was great. You had endless excuses to say why you can’t email a student their grade.

[whyenot]

Isn't that due to FERPA related concerns?

[dotancohen]

  > setting this up is well beyond the capabilities of most students.

Setting up custom email filters is beyond the capabilities of most students? What are they learning? Where will they be qualified to work?

[metaengies]

> Where will they be qualified to work?

Going by a certain story 2 years ago, their concern should be that they're overqualified for Meta.

It doesn't help that gmail, which is the only serious direct competition to outlook, straight up doesn't do "folders" and instead goes with markers. So you can't really just put a filter that drags all the 100 low-priority alerts in what would count as a first degree abstraction of "place where things are sorted into". No, there are two layers of abstraction between point A and B of things, sorter and sorted things. The result? Muggles can't recognize the heck you're describing and refuse to even acknowledge the possibility.

[user_7832]

> It doesn't help that gmail, which is the only serious direct competition to outlook, straight up doesn't do "folders" and instead goes with markers.

While true, unless I'm mistaken, markers (I assume you're referring to tags) can be nested to provide a pseudo-folder hierarchy, and with proper filters you can remove the "inbox" tag and have the mail only show up under the specific tag.

TBH I don't fully mind it, it lets you classify an email in multiple ways (eg "See Later" as well as "Work related").

[mschild]

Tags are great but I still want my folders. Also doesn't help that the way google describes some things is unnecessarily complex or confusing. For example, removing an email from the inbox requires archiving it. In most other applications (WhatsApp, Signal, Outlook, etc) archiving usually results in the email being placed in a specific archive folder that isn't readily accessible through the UI. At least not to the same level that normal emails are.

[philamonster]

People in my work and personal life experience do not understand the concept of labels in a Google inbox and misname them folders 100% of the time. Google allows you to drag-n-drop emails "into" labels like you would files in folders conflating the issue even more as the logic to automate this behaviour with a filter isn't leveraged. Even the layout of a default inbox is setup in a way that the average user has difficulty understanding what happens when an email drops off the "front page" of their inbox.

[bitfilped]

They can be nested, the one thing I have never been able to figure out though is how to get alerts of receiving a message while also filing away in a sub folder. You get one or the other in outlook, as a result I rarely check my work email anymore cause I either get the fire hose of spam or miss everything entirety because it's going to a folder and not passing along an alert about a new message.

[swiftcoder]

Gmail still has perfectly functional filters that can be set to auto-apply a label and skip the inbox. They may be called "labels" now, but they still function just as they did when the UI called them "folders"

[GTP]

I partially solve this by using Thunderbird on my laptop. When I get emails on my smartphone (on the Gmail app), they unfortunately all go to the inbox. But the moment I open Thunderbird, it nicely organizes them for me.

[chopin]

Does Thunderbird have rules? I searched for this and didn't find them.

[GTP]

Yes, it has filters. Open it's menu (the three stacked lines on the desktop version) and you will find them there.

[dotancohen]

I use Thunderbird on both the desktop and Android. Love it.

Perhaps Outlook is difficult to configure. Thunderbird is intuitive.

[GTP]

Yes, every now and then I think I should try it on Android as well, but still have to do it. It would be great if there was the possibility to sync filters across devices, in a similar way of using your Firefox account to sync extensions. Do you know if this is possible?

[teiferer]

If a CS graduate can't figure out some simple gmail labels and filters then they should not be awarded that degree. Plain and simple. It's not rocket science.

[Poacher5]

And there are no other students at any college other than CS students? I'm not sure why a biologist or a literature student would need to be au fait with Google's admittedly fairly unfriendly email management setup.

[denkmoon]

Digital literacy is important to every field. Email filters are not some arcane computer science concept, they are the modern equivalent of filing physical mail into the right folder/pidgeon hole/inbox/whatever.

Biology is a great example because of just how important digital record management is to experimentation in the field.

[teiferer]

1. This was a response to a CS professor, so specific to CS students.

2. Yes, configuring gmail filters should be doable for anybody with a university degree. It's really not hard.

[mold_aid]

Most of my students, across all disciplines, don't have basic competence in Word or GDocs, software they've been using for years. It's weeks to teach them how to appy headings

[Daub]

I feel your pain, and my students are design students

[weird-eye-issue]

Most graduates aren't really qualified to work anywhere that they couldn't have worked before going to college in the first place.

[smcin]

You mean graduates of US colleges? Not colleges in general. Or non-technical graduates of US colleges?

[J-Kuhn]

I think they point weird-eye-issue wants to make is: Students attend college to become qualified to work.

[weird-eye-issue]

I think you completely misread my comment.

[lokar]

I used LaTeX as a ugrad, it’s not that hard

[skeeter2020]

you're at the other end of the spectrum; unless you get work in academia this is not an advantange.

[lokar]

I use it to filter recruiters, if they can’t accept (a well typeset) PDF résumé, and insist on Word I know to skip them.

[recursive]

Congratulations on your competence.

[sillywabbit]

It's not even standard in academia.

[poopmonster]

Depends on the discipline. I never hear of mathematicians using anything else.

[crazygringo]

You know that most students aren't computer science majors?

Have you met the average community college student who doesn't even own a laptop but does all of their work on their phone? Gmail doesn't even allow you to create or manage filters from their phone app or mobile web interface.

[fooker]

I have been using email for as long as email was a thing and I still managed to blackhole important emails with filters not too long ago.

[mschuster91]

> What are they learning?

Exactly what is in their field of study, nothing more. That's a huge part of the problems created by treating academia as a degree mill mandatory to get a job able to feed yourself instead of a place only for those truly interested in actually studying a subject.

[emodendroket]

Most people who have office jobs don't know how to do this either

[shakna]

Most managers I've met, struggle with setting up email filters, and have to ask tech support to do it for them. These students will be qualified just fine.

[gucci-on-fleek]

I'd hope/assume that any Computer Science students would be able to do this, but most Biology/Education/English/Art students probably couldn't.

I mean, anyone smart enough to attend university could probably figure it out if they really wanted to, but there are hundreds of other useful things that they could learn too. There are only so many hours in the day, and given that most students don't get that many emails, I can hardly blame them for not wanting to prioritize learning how to filter emails.

(I personally have over a hundred lines of Sieve filters, but I'm definitely not a typical student)

[jameshart]

Biologists should be more qualified than most to classify and tag email specimens.

[throwaway2037]

This is a brilliant reply. I shook my head at the original and laughed hard at your perfectly reasonable question.

It reminds me of an old joke my father used to say about jobs with virtually no interview (fast food, etc). He called it "The Mirror Test", as in if you hold a mirror up to the person, does it fog up? If yes, you are hired!

[BigTTYGothGF]

> What are they learning?

Are you suggesting that outlook wrangling be explicitly taught at the college level?

[u_fucking_dork]

Anywhere. I straight up don’t check my email at work. If people need me they have to teams message me to tell me they emailed me. Don’t have time to sift through all the bullshit generated emails. Jira, GitHub, confluence, servicenow, workday, etc. amounts to an incredible amount of junk I just can’t be bothered with.

[Scroll_Swe]

>Setting up custom email filters is beyond the capabilities of most students?

Yes. And most of the general population. They can do it once they know it exists, most people just are not aware it is a thing at all.

>What are they learning?

Here, their "major" as you say in the US. Someone in econ, biology or even CS is not going to learn Outlook rules. Maybe IT or business will have a sentence on it.

>Where will they be qualified to work?

Any office job. Any job really.

[setopt]

In my experience, it’s hard enough to make students check their school email in the first place. Let alone filter it.

[lokar]

As a ugrad, and later a PhD student teaching, everything is explained the first day. If you can figure it out you just fail the class (or go to office hrs to get help, etc).

[setopt]

As an associate professor, I do explain things the first day, but I am certainly not permitted to fail students as a consequence of not checking their email daily.

Even if they didn’t hand in an assignment at all, without any reason provided, I’m required by regulation to offer them a second chance to pass that assignment.

The students’ rights are quite strong here (Northern Europe), which I generally support, but it has some downsides.

[lokar]

Interesting. I remember very strict rules on turning in programming assignments (as a student, and later TA). On time, printed properly, in a specific envelope, labeled as specified in the right location.

[throawayonthe]

it's MS software, i think it's inanely difficult

[butlike]

Didn't you hear? Chat apps and iMessage (SMS included) is the new email.

Delete

Delete and Report Spam

[e28eta]

Students having records of what their score was doesn't prove to the professor / university what score they received. "FWD: Exam 1 Results" is not especially auditable.

[lacunary]

If only we had some way of signing messages

[ykonstant]

The technology isn't there yet (｡•́︿•̀｡)

[brookst]

Though in a case like this attackers would likely revoke (or publish) the private key.

[JeremyNT]

Ah, perhaps we could put it on the blockchain! /s

[JumpCrisscross]

> Students having records of what their score was doesn't prove to the professor / university what score they received

It's better than nothing. (And good training for the real world.)

Also, most universities (and many schools now) issue academic e-mail addresses to students. In those cases, the email is definitive proof.

[AmblingAvocado]

DKIM signature could be used to verify that Canvas' server sent the email with the given content

[nbernard]

Good luck having people forward an email a) with headers and b) in a way that doesn't break the signature...

[tempaccount5050]

And who exactly do you think is going to verify 100s of thousands of emails this way dude?

[bravura]

A computer?

[hoppyhoppy2]

Emails from Canvas saying a grade is available do not currently include the actual grade in the email, so that would have to be implemented first. And it's probably not implemented quite intentionally because of FERPA.

[gruez]

As opposed to a screenshot of a website? Presumably the professor has a spreadsheet of all assignment grades that is submitted to the school?

[JumpCrisscross]

> Presumably the professor has a spreadsheet of all assignment grades that is submitted to the school?

This would undermine Canvas's lock-in.

[freeopinion]

Canvas is built to automatically export its gradebook to an external system. It will do that automatically every day if you want it to. Teachers or others can manually export to the configured foreign system on demand. So if you grade something and want it to show up in the foreign gradebook without waiting for the daily export, you can just press the button to make it happen right away.

[doctorpangloss]

i cannot believe how much benefit of the doubt people are giving canvas

ed tech is the WORST performing VC sector

the ONLY game in that town is vendor lock-in! are people joking?

c'mon, canvas is a huge piece of shit. the SaaSpocalypse is coming for them - it seems it is simply that LLMs will be used to exploit it first, rather than universities writing an open alternative they share with each other for free.

[freeopinion]

Canvas is AGPL licensed. Moodle is GPL. Universities or anyone else can already contribute to big name LMS.

Canvas is used by Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Carnegie Mellon, CalTech, etc. If they each paid 10 FTE, they could set up a foundation that could govern the development of a top-tier LMS. Every tier-1 state institution could contribute 5 FTE. Even little JuCos could chip in an employee here and there. You'd pick up hundreds of capable employees at a fraction of what those schools currently pay to Instructure.

[freeopinion]

How well has this worked for Open edX?

[gizajob]

Why do they all pay for it then? Seems pretty universal in the UK too. Is it having the benefit of someone to blame when things go wrong?

[freeopinion]

On paper your idea seems obvious. You take a bunch of institutions that actually teach students how to program and have them cooperate to build an open LMS that benefits them all.

In reality, universities always spin off anything that looks like it could generate revenue. It is very telling that you can't even get your college transcript from your college. You have to go to (and pay) some third party to get it. Some universities even outsource their "classes" like elderhostel to cruise lines and travel companies.

[gucci-on-fleek]

> rather than universities writing an open alternative they share with each other for free

That already exists [0], and is actually reasonably popular.

> the SaaSpocalypse is coming for them - it seems it is simply that LLMs will be used to exploit it first

I doubt it, because enterprise sales has nothing to do with how good your product is, how expensive it is, how easy it is to administer, how secure it is, etc.; it only depends on how good you are at enterprise sales. I mean, my university is Oracle-based, and I'm pretty sure that you could get 3 random undergraduates to write something better, so I don't think that LLMs writing better/cheaper software will make any difference here.

[0]: https://moodle.org/

[blahedo]

Nope! We're encouraged to keep all that exclusively in canvas. (As noted, I have my own spreadsheet. But I'm an outlier.)

[gucci-on-fleek]

Presumably the system will be back up eventually, so there's not much benefit to lying here, since at best you'll raise your grade in a few classes for a couple months, while taking on a pretty big risk of getting caught.

[pishpash]

You forget things can be signed, with the key owned by the school. It can be done.

[SlightlyLeftPad]

Does signing really make this easily auditable from the professor’s perspective?

[DaSHacka]

Exactly this, when was the last time a HN user had to interact with the prototypical 60-year-old set-in-their-ways professor?

Extremely non-tech savvy, hates computers, and is gonna grumble "What the hell is a PGP? Better not be another one of those phone code things." as you try to pitch this highly-technological solution to a largely niche problem domain.

[Forgeties79]

They don’t even need to not be tech savvy. This stuff just registers as “hassle” to most people so they do the bare minimum or search for ways to not deal with it at all. It’s easy to “tut tut” at them but ultimately we need to accept reality: privacy, security, these things take extra effort that isn’t strictly necessary for people to go about their daily lives even though the stakes can be super high. It’s not a problem until it is, so they aren’t really barriers that require people to do the work. It’s like convincing someone who just simply doesn’t want to go out and buy/install a lock on their door to go do it, except it’s not even a one-time thing. Their door works fine. They can come and go as they please. It’s not until something happens that they maybe change their tune (and even then!)

Hell just getting people to do secure passwords is a whole thing.

[jazzyjackson]

I mean a cloud based learning management system also seems to be a very technological solution to the very old problem of checks notes grading quizzes?

[MarsIronPI]

Makes me glad I've always avoided doing my work on web platforms. When we used to have to make presentations in Google Slides I used to do them in Org-mode, then export to Sheets. I still have all those assignments sitting on my disk. Sure, there's versions of them on Google Drive, but I always make sure that the canonical version is the one on my disk.

[moralestapia]

>It’s so simple to send an e-mail to the student ...

What seems easy on hobby projects gets way more difficult at scale. Source: experience.

[Hendrikto]

For what they charge for these LMSs, they should definitely be able to sent some emails.

[brookst]

No concerns about privacy or regulatory considerations that might vary by jurisdiction? Just yolo it and deal with breech later?

[bartread]

> They don’t do it, because they want to control the data.

Ironically, this incident shows they don’t have control of anything.