[throwaway_7274]

I was glued to the window while flying over southern China recently. There is so much infrastructure you can see from the air, even in fairly rural provinces. So many bridges. So many wind turbines. It is visibly a country on the move, a country that believes in itself and its ability to do things. The Chinese Century is increasingly palpable, for better or worse.

[fusslo]

I have two chinese-born coworkers (who spent 20-30 years here in the us) in the same room. When we talk about china's expansion, I am always jealous of the public projects, infrastructure, housing, etc. They always point out the huge unemployment of young people, declining birth rate, and other social ills.

They say they're worried when the building stops. Even more people will be out of jobs. And when the nation ages all they built will be used and maintained by fewer people

I've never been to china so it's interesting perspective from people with family there and go back 2-3 times a year

[sureshv]

I always take these views with a grain of salt, many immigrant's view of their home country is ossified at the time of emigration.

[simonask]

In the same vein, it’s reasonable to take a foreigner’s view with a grain of salt. For all its impressive progress, China doesn’t show off its problems.

The “West” had the same problem many times during the first Cold War, where things in the Soviet Union seemed really great from the outside. Only after the collapse did the truth become clear.

Now, I don’t think China is even remotely similar, but never forget that it is not a free society.

[WarmWash]

In the US it's practically a right of passage to be a young adult and very vocally hate the country, hate the government.

In China you don't have a life in front of you if you do that.

[culi]

Try browsing Chinese social media (WeChat, Douyin, Weibo, etc). The internet is ripe with non-anonymous criticism of the gov't

People often point to the take down of Winnie the Pooh memes as censorship but I don't think people realize there's a long history of racist groups using Pooh as a slur about Asian people and Tigger about black people. The meme exploded in popularity from a picture of Obama and Xi being compared to Tigger and Pooh.

You can have whatever opinion you want about taking down racist content but I don't it's any different from Western platforms. But spending any time on Chinese social media will quickly dispel the idea of harsh consequences for speech (an especially silly idea coming from members of the nation that contains 25% of the world's prisoners)

[waterhouse]

So is it your position that, when the Chinese government imposes takedowns or worse on Chinese people posting Winnie the Pooh stuff, it's primarily because the Chinese government is opposed to anti-Asian racism?

[WarmWash]

We all saw what happened in Hong Kong...

[baranul]

> nation that contains 25% of the world's prisoners

Among the problems is not being able to look in the mirror. There are those that don't realize, "when you point one finger, there are three fingers point back at you".

[joe_mamba]

>In the US it's practically a right of passage to be a young adult and very vocally hate the country, hate the government.

Well, unless ICE murders you at a protest for expressing your hate of the government's actions.

>In China you don't have a life in front of you if you do that.

That's very much not true. China isn't North Korea like Westerners imagine. Unless you riot, take to the streets, or become a big agitator or dissident, Chinese government and media actually does allow some controlled escape valves for regular people to vent about problems, no issue with that. This isn't Stalin's reign of terror.

You'll only get disappeared if you end up becoming a big fish to threaten the CCP, like Jack Ma, but otherwise the CCP don't end disappearing every schmuck who complains about the government.

You might not know this, but as a nation, you don't get very far economically, academically and technologically in the long run by consonantly oppressing your people under a culture of permanent fear of their government. You can't bleed a stone.

And China got where it is, due to its successful policies from the last half-century that brought prosperity and lifted millions of of poverty, it's government has earned a certain level of "buy-in" from the majority of the population, meaning the people are more likely to be cooperative and work with the totalitarian government towards a common set of mutually beneficial goals, rather than wasting their energy trying to mass emigrate out of the country or to fight for democracy.

And that's what so dangerous about this, because unlike the USSR who served in the west as THE model of inevitable failure for such systems, China found a successful form of totalitarian governance, that some western governments are now trying to copy when they saw how effective it is.

[tpm]

> China found a successful form of totalitarian governance, that some western governments are now trying to copy when they saw how effective it is.

They are certainly trying to copy some elements, but also some parts might be inevitable in the age of decentralised social media which are much harder to control using the old tools. China just enacted that first and the West had to go through all the turmoil to arrive in a similar place much later.

[stasomatic]

>due to its successful policies from the last half-century >that brought prosperity and lifted

Not because of the West giving China its industry, because - greed and China's blatant IP theft? Who cares if the communists make everything we consume, right? Stock price, yo.

"Apple in China" by Patrick McGee is a good read.

I like Chinese food, the arts, the folklore, they make my favorite bows (archery), but I don't want my grandkids have to learn Mandarin unless they want to.

Tangent, I always do a double take when I see CCP, as "USSR" is spelled "CCCP" in Cyrillic, it's charming (I am from a former USSR republic).

[rurp]

Sure, but in this case it seems spot on. China really does have a disturbingly high youth unemployment rate, along with a population that's aging and shrinking. I have no idea if they're headed for a major economic crash, but the track record of command economies controlled by a paranoid aging dictator don't have a very good track record.

For all the things China does well there are plenty of reasons for Chinese people to be concerned about their future.

[seanmcdirmid]

But we’ve seen this already in Japan, and it kind of worked out for them? Yes, they didn’t become the richest country in the world like everyone predicted in the 80s, they have stagnated a bit, but life there is still pretty good.

I’ve been visiting China since 1999 (and lived there for around 10 years). Rapid progress, lots of investments, over investment (ghost districts and ghost cities) are inevitable, but after its all over they will still have an advanced economy with lots of opportunities.

[Danox]

Why is that a problem? Most of the people in China live in about 1/3 of the country. Imagine if everyone in the United States lived in just 1/3 of the United States even with 350 million people that would be crowded , but China has 1.3 billion people living in an area the size of the United States from the Atlantic Ocean to the Mississippi river imagine 1.3 billion people living just in that area.

Building infrastructure for a civilized society is never bad and when I say that nothing is perfect. There are downsides. I would rather have the infrastructure and I wished the United States still had that can-do attitude. The rail system across the country needs to be upgraded desperately.

The Chinese have even taken the lessons of Oak Ridge, Tennessee, they have built two Thorium reactors and refueled one without turning it off, and they appear to be right on schedule to have that larger second reactor online by 2030.

[decimalenough]

> Building infrastructure for a civilized society is never bad

If only. Everybody loves cutting the ribbon on shiny new infrastructure, but the cost of maintenance is very real and never ending.

As a simple example, rezone some agricultural land as residential and sell it to developers. Yay, free money! But only once, and now you have a bunch of roads and plumbing etc etc that you need to upkeep forever. If there's people living in the houses and paying taxes, that's fine, but if there aren't or they go away, you now have a very big, very expensive problem. Japan is deep into feeling the pain of this and demographically China is only a decade or two behind.

[soperj]

> Imagine if everyone in the United States lived in just 1/3 of the United States

Take a 100 mile strip down the east coast and the west coast. Add Chicago. That's pretty much everyone.

[Arubis]

Yeah, same thought. Parent post isn’t theoretical; that’s pretty much what actual US demographics are.

The population of the NYC metro area exceeds that of the entire US Mountain _timezone_.

[shipman05]

IDK if pretty much everyone can exclude Florida and Texas, the second and third most populated states. (Or I suppose you could be excluding the Northeast Corridor instead of Florida)

[mvdtnz]

I'm no expert on USA but looking at a map Florida is very obviously on the east coast, and the entire peninsula is only slightly wider than GP's 100 miles.

[shipman05]

Touche, I was thinking of it more as 100 miles in length, not 100 miles in width running all the way down the coast, but your interpretation seems more correct.

[ErneX]

Visit if you can, and take some bullet trains! We had a blast last year there.

[_DeadFred_]

Shanghai was great in the 2010s. Seems like a different place today.

Are the bullet trains making enough to pay down construction debt yet? My understanding is that that has been a struggle, which is going to be a problem when they get past being new and start having more and more maintenance expense on top of paying back construction debt.

[theendisney]

They dont have to, they are reqired to make the country work. Its like trying to make us roads profitable.

[munk-a]

Or having some silly notion that the post service should be profitable.

Public services generally provide public good that outweighs their cost. Trying to quantify and charge for that cost is a useless exercise.

[m4rtink]

Well, the Shinkansen lines managed to bankrupt JNR in Japan just fine. :) Still they are a massive benefit for the country.

[try-working]

I've been living in Shanghai sinze 2010, with some time in between in Shenzhen. Shanghai is much better now than in the 2010s.

[_DeadFred_]

That is awesome. I hate the weird 'window' we get into places online, I need to learn to ignore it. I loved the city and it's people!

I hate the current bs going on in the US against China. It reminds me of the Japan scare crap pushed in the US when I was a kid.

[ErneX]

I cannot compare with 2010 since it was my 1st time but I liked Shanghai.

Chongqing too!

[cromka]

China will likely become the go-to place for immigrants within couple decades. Just like any other developed economy had.

[strictnein]

That would be quite the change, considering they don't really allow any outsiders to become citizens.

[cromka]

Neither do UAE or Hong Kong, and see how this ever stopped immigrants from making them immigrant-first economies. If anything, if you can successfully attract immigrants with a residency only, you get the best of both worlds.

[Arubis]

Does it matter? If a permanent resident class exists (de facto is fine, if not legal), what would those folks be missing out on that citizenship would confer? You can’t legalize your way to cultural assimilation, and it’s not like the CCP would tolerate a meaningful vote.

[mytailorisrich]

> You can’t legalize your way to cultural assimilation

And that's why we are unlikely to see mass immigration allowed in China. They know that and can see what has happened and is happening in Europe and are thus likely to protect themselves. That's not my opinion but what Chinese think if you can discuss openly with people there.

This is a puzzling badly-received point of view here, but I think Europe and its official narrative that are actually the odd ones out globally.

China is investing a lot in automation and they already have state of the art automated factories. I think this will be the way forward for them and everyone (birth rates are dropping everywhere).

[kakwa_]

It's not always the case, for example Japan has very low immigration.

And there is also the demographic disparity at play here.

The US is attracting migrants mainly from Latin America, that's a population basin of 650M people, roughly 2 times the US population.

In China's case, the surrounding countries susceptible to provide migrants is what? a third of China's population?

I'm not knowledgeable nearly enough about the area but I also feel there are also significant cultural and historical elements limiting large scale immigration (for example, the complex Sino-Vietnamese relations).

[maxglute]

>In China's case

It's more likely PRC will have migrant labourers do low value work like Mexican fruit pickers. They're going to have ample high skill / tertiary workers for 50+ years, this baked into existing births... i.e. half the reason they have youth "unemployment" problem is they're generating so much tertiary talent vs opportunities, so there's no use for western based talent immigration to augment highend demographics.

The real shortfall is going to be low end blue collar - people willing to move dirt do shit jobs for peanuts, previously that's 100s of millions of undereducated who are aging out, so that leaves robots and south east asians and maybe africa because 1.4B PRC will require more remittance workers than poor asia can provide... unless they figure out automation. Even in west these cohorts are not immigration material, they're seasonal workers.

[HerbManic]

I do wonder about this. With demographic collapse coming for almost all nations, or with a notable trend line for it to come, what would happen if other nations basically prevent emigration? Better to keep their people than lose them. Alternatively, those with large populations can use this as a bargaining chip in trade negotiations.

The coming decades will be interesting.

[bobomonkey]

When Europe lost a tone of people to disease, wages went up, housing was cheep and people made families.

Sadly, big business wants cheap labor so we can't have nice things.

[dyauspitr]

I don’t think so. They have a massive working population and foreign entrepreneurship is hard there. Also they have no process of assimilation and are pretty openly hostile to outsiders. If anything you might see low skilled immigrant labor moving there but I don’t think there’s going to be large numbers of high skilled workers moving there.

[seanmcdirmid]

China had way more immigrants a decade ago, or even 25 years ago, than it does today. They have been opening up and then closing again for a while now, I think they found that they don’t really need many immigrants, if any, to develop. They aren’t going to become immigrant dependent like the west, at best it will be more like Japan where immigrants fly under the radar (literally, having African work crews out at night so the locals don’t notice).

[10xDev]

This has yet to happen in East Asia and probably never will.

America and countries that engaged in worldwide colonisation are the exception not the rule.

[cromka]

Sorry, WHAT? What about Singapore? Hong Kong?

[mytailorisrich]

I doubt it because the Chinese are very protective of their homogeneity and see what has happened in Europe as a massive cautionary tale. So my guess is that they will be very picky and control both quality and numbers tightly.

[gambiting]

>>and see what has happened in Europe as a massive cautionary tale

As a European - what has happened to us, exactly? I'm curious what kind of thing you think is happening to Europe that is such disaster that even China should be afraid of it.

[10xDev]

European GDP per capita has not grown since the crash in 2008. Ever since we have heard that immigrants are being imported for jobs, yet the economy only gets worse, house prices increases due to supply and demand and crime rate is not equal among groups. Yes some people are just white supremacists but also, immigration hasn't solved anything in Europe in recent times. It is not like the US where you have a massive startup scene and get an Elon Musk from South Africa to create jobs and add meaningful value.

[tssva]

Not getting an Elon Musk seems like a massive positive.

[gambiting]

>>Ever since we have heard that immigrants are being imported for jobs

You do realize that most of European migration is internal, right? Polish workers going to Germany, that kind of thing? It would be like complaining that American migration is crazy because of all the people moving from Kansas to take jobs in California.

>> house prices increases due to supply and demand and crime rate is not equal among groups

As compared to....?

>>It is not like the US where you have a massive startup scene and get an Elon Musk from South Africa to create jobs and add meaningful value.

I'm like, honestly not sure what to say to that. I could maybe start listing successful businesses started and/or ran by immigrants in the EU if that helps? Or is the fact that none of them are as famous as Elon Musk a dealbreaker?

[ChoosesBarbecue]

I'm passively curious how the long-term maintenance of this all ends up. You don't just build a bridge, you have to keep it up when the natural strain of the world impacts upon it. Given provinces already have debt problems [0], how the hell will all of this infrastructure look in 50 years?

[0]: https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3254680/c...

[HerbManic]

This is the structure of catabolic collapse. When the mere maintenance costs over run the capabilities/resources of the civilisation.

Funnily enough it may turn out that those nations that just muddled along could have the best long term out comes. Yes, they never got the really good stuff but they also won't have a harder decline.

"You cannot fall out of bed if you sleep on the floor" - Turkish proverb

[Markoff]

>I have two chinese-born coworkers (who spent 20-30 years here in the us) in the same room. When we talk about china's expansion, I am always jealous of the public projects, infrastructure, housing, etc. They always point out the huge unemployment of young people, declining birth rate, and other social ills.

You have all of that (huge unemployment of young people, declining birth rate, and other social ills) also in Europe MINUS the Chinese progress, your co-workers are clearly biased

but for other perspective - I lived in China 5+ years, left in 2016, I returned for 3 weeks vacation/family visit last summer and honestly I didn't see that many changes as you would expect, in China in 9 years you would expect pretty much different country by previous standards, but I was like "meh", hardly any changes beside few more EVs on the road (even there I was disappointed, Beijing clearly ain't Shenzhen, maybe 25-35% cars on the road and I am including hybrids as well), bunch of new subway lines and skyscrapers, but nothing mindblowing, it was actually quite underwhelming, people still smoke in restaurants (and policemen in police station right under No smoking sign), still noise and mess on (some) streets, even more street markets (gentrification) closed, on the positive note thanks to crappy economy and zero inflation or maybe even deflation salaries are same and prices remained same (you can rent apartment for like 200EUR in Beijing suburbs), I can't imagine having pretty much same price for meal after 9 years in European restaurant

[devilsdata]

Are these not the same things people are complaining about in the West, though?

[kevin_thibedeau]

Not hard to find the evidence of tofu dregs. Start being envious when they stop using ewaste as filler for concrete roads and buildings.

[aworks]

I traveled to Wuhan twice a year for business for much of the last decade (until the pandemic).

China was a growing country that clearly knew how to build infrastructure. In Wuhan, they built an entire development intended to employ 100,000 engineers (Huawei + our US company's 50). They built a subway system in a decade that's bigger than New York City's. I took the high-speed rail to Beijing and it was superb. They replaced an old, shabby international airport terminal with a new one with the widest concourse I've ever seen. They subsidized regular flights between Wuhan and San Francisco on China Southern airlines. The Hyatt Regency there was one of my favorite hotels I've ever stayed in (cheap and high quality). In a big commerical district, they had the largest screen I've ever seen that had a Blue Screen of Death :-)

Dazzling yet I'm not bullish on China due to its demographics, among many other reasons.

[twilo]

What’s wrong with their demographics? Population decline?

[HerbManic]

It has been called the 4-2-1 problem. 4 people had 2 kids. Those 2 kids had 1 of their own. This means there ends up with a more elderly people with far fewer young to support them. That doesn't look like a recipe for social stability. This is why they are going in so hard on automation nowadays, they are trying to do what Japan attempted in the 90s/2000s but hopefully with more success.

This was originally a side effect of the One child policy, but now it is continued due to difficult living situations. This is not a uniquely China issue.

https://alexatsintolas.weebly.com/the-4-2-1-problem.html

[segmondy]

robots

[thisisit]

Whenever the topic of Chinese infrastructure comes up I am reminded of a 2016 Wired documentary about Shenzhen. It was positive portrayal of hacker culture in Shenzhen. But one thing really stood out to me. They had demarcation line separating the city and “urban village”. It looked like lots of poor people lived in the urban village. The guide mentioned that the urban village will be torn down completely in 3 months to expand the city and people had to move. It sounded like gentrification. The host was impressed by the efficiency.

But it made me question how many countries can actually be that “efficiency” because matters of uprooting large swath of population will take years not months and run into significant legal challenges as well.

To be clear use of eminent domain and gentrification happens even in US but I doubt it can be as “efficient” as a technocratic government. It’s not a knock on Chinese government, just something I always wonder.

[esperent]

Tearing down a slum is not gentrification.

Gentrification is when existing communities that used to have decent if basic living situations get gradually priced out of an area as richer people and their expensive amenities move in. Gradually, as house prices go up and food gets more expensive, people sell and move. It's a slow, mostly voluntary thing, or at least, driven by market forces rather than official mandates.

Tearing down a slum is a much more disruptive thing that instantly displaces a entire community. Although it's unclear what happened to that community in this case and I can't find anything clear about it online (lots of clearly biased articles for one side or the other though).

[threethirtytwo]

A Chinese person who was here in the US as a foreign student once commented to me that he was so surprised that the United States was like the country side. He didn’t realize how rural the country was.

This was at UCLA which is in LA which is the second biggest city in the US.

[phainopepla2]

West LA isn't like a Chinese city, but no one in their right mind would call UCLA rural

[testing22321]

When friends visited NYC and we drove around a bit they said “it’s like everything is half finished”

[cucumber3732842]

Did he ask about all the bricked up windows in London?

You get what you incentivize.

[titanomachy]

Is that just because of the scaffolding on everything? IIRC that's due to some legal or tax bullshit.

[HerbManic]

I get the same thing here is Australia. There is a lot of space with little going on.

I mean we have the Nullarbor plain. The name literally means 'No Trees', and it is very fitting.

If you ever end up there... I hope you don't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullarbor_Plain

[klodolph]

People are also surprised how rural much of China is.

[jimbob45]

https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/origin.png

Posting the map in case anyone hasn’t seen it.

[10xDev]

Russia, US, Australia, Canada are all like this. Probably many more. The world is a very small place when you look at where most people actually live.

[monocasa]

To be fair, six percent is still 84 million people.

[leereeves]

Presumably referring to population density? People like the low density in California.

[badpun]

I'd say it's a country that builds a ton of infrastructure, at the expense of living standards of common people. The money from infra has to come from anywhere, and an all-powerful central government can just redirect the stream from consumer spending into building out infrastructure. Whether Chinese are happy about it, you'd have to ask them.

[tartoran]

The US is not building infrastructure at the expense of living standard of common people. Ask Americans if they're happy about it.

[10xDev]

On the move to where? Massive unemployment amongst youth and population collapse is on its way.

You are projecting a fantasy.