[advael]

It fascinates me to speculate about who this is for. At least among people I've talked to, the ones who still want windows (instead of the obvious alternatives) cite wanting things to "just work", often claiming that they "don't want making the computer work to become a second job" or similar. I personally don't think these preferences reflect the reality of how much effort using e.g. a linux distro is in this day and age, to be clear, but these are the beliefs I encounter. Are there really people who want to deal with providing feedback and stress testing an operating system and its various software components and features, but doing this for a corporation that sets the terms of their transparency efforts and ultimately does this for profit and will still grab the reins and exert control against their users' will when they feel like it?

[zx8080]

> obvious alternatives

First of all, in many countries outside of EU/US it's just not possible to buy laptop without preinstalled Windows 11 (except Apple). For example, even if a model supports Linux in the US as many Lenovo Thinkpads do, in Singapore it's just not sold without Windows.

Second, Microsoft has broken sleep with pushing S0 sleep in UEFI. Bettery life is shit now, and hibernate is disabled by default in most OS. Also, hibernate in Linux is a complete disaster comparing to windows one (windows presaves memory to disk continuously, while in linux you have to wait until the whole ram (+ vram, if gpu) is saved/restored). It takes time. Sleep s3 is needed, but Microsoft killed it. So linux is really a bad choice for laptop. But Windows 11 is much worse, especially if you don't really like ads.

[londons_explore]

I don't really understand the rationale behind disabling S3 sleep...

Was it simply that getting every device and driver to properly support it was hard, so the easiest option was to remove it and have the machine always powered up?

[zx8080]

Probably to improve some manager's KPI (updates) and also to make using laptops under other OS hard (ok, there's almost no other OS than Linux).

[ninjagoo]

> in many countries outside of EU/US it's just not possible to buy laptop without preinstalled Windows 11

Wipe and install something else. Previously you would just have been eating the OS license cost paid, and the benefit was taking control and supporting the free-as-in-freedom ecosystem.

But now the additional benefits are that you'll be preventing them from monetizing your data on an ongoing basis, denying data for training ai, and enhancing your privacy, so it's economically justifiable too.

[gsich]

True. I have Fedora and FDE, if I enter Hibernate it's a crash on bext boot.

[als0]

> Microsoft has broken sleep with pushing S0 sleep in UEFI

> Sleep s3 is needed, but Microsoft killed it.

Would you or someone else here mind explaining this?

[numpad0]

ACPI defines power state of power-saving capable offbrand fake IBM computers(among other things, and also the "fake IBM" part is almost completely moot at this point).

ACPI power state S0 is everything running. S1 pauses CPU and CPU I/O bus. S2 puts CPU to reset. S3 cuts power to CPU. S4 cuts off everything(not actual power off). S5 cuts off everything(actual power off).

S3 and S4 are often referred to as Sleep and Hibernation. In Sleep, RAM contents are kept as-is, and sleep handling code just restore CPU internal states that gets lost. In Hibernation, OS usually dump RAM contents to disk, and write back to RAM upon bootup - S4 and S5 aren't always clearly separated and both Windows and Linux tend to go through standard boot processes, then do the state resume using RAM dump they find on disk.

For SOME reason, Microsoft forced laptop vendors to quit supporting S3 in favor of their custom "S0iX" state, which is more or less just machine running at full power, which can be extremely wasteful as far as sleep state goes.

The official explanation for this pressuring is that everybody want notification and this is the only way Windows could possibly handle notifications. A lot are skeptical about that.

1: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/k...

[estimator7292]

The bit we all care about: S3 is sleep mode proper. Most everything is physically powered off, only enough is kept on to keep contents of RAM alive.

S0 is.. just on. The PC is completely powered up. Microsoft has done this so that they can force your computer to wake itself up to install updates you don't want. Literally you aren't allowed to turn off your computer because some middle manager needs to see update stats go up. If your computer happens to be in a bag and cooks itself to death, well that's your problem. Fuck you for trying to keep Microsoft's statistics down.

[londons_explore]

> hibernate in Linux is a complete disaster comparing to windows one

Part of this is that hibernation can't be cancelled mid way, which is dumb. Ideally a computer is like a light switch - you can turn it on and off instantly whenever. To get closer to that, if you turn it off, but then immediately on again, the hibernation should be cancelled and return you to your desktop.

Also, the whole idea of a 'hibernation image' which is read from disk in one huge 10+ second read is best for hard drives. Now that everyone uses SSD, it should all be demand-paged in.

[jofzar]

Windows insider builds have always been for people who like being on the cutting edge, it's the same as people who run nightlies for Linux.

Some people just enjoy testing and the pain that comes with it.

[advael]

Right, but it's hard not to claim those people would likely get more out of an OS they could customize more, and also that it's considerably more exploitative of those people across the divide of corporate product versus community project

[herrherrmann]

Sometimes it’s just about using the path of least resistance. I’ve also contributed to Apple Maps’ and Google Maps’ data, even though I’d prefer to exclusively contribute to OSM and other open platforms instead. But, it was just easier to go through a quick form in the (Apple|Google) Maps app, because that’s where I was at that point in time. Maybe the excuse is laziness and/or force of habit?

Edit: I also imagine the reach of the mainstream platforms to be much higher (e.g. Windows vs. Linux or Google Maps user reviews vs. <is there even an alternative?>).

[kgwxd]

Except nightlies for Linux don't typically include user-hostile, lock-in motivated, changes.

[hulitu]

> Are there really people who want to deal with providing feedback and stress testing an operating system and its various software components

Feedback is there on their feedback site. They just wouldn't listen.

[PunchyHamster]

Why would they use windows and not macos for "just working" ? Even office moved to web for most companies

[sgt]

I love macOS for a "just working" OS but I wouldn't think people spending a lot of time using Office would prefer the Web versions. They are just (by definition) sluggish, like most web apps are. Use the native apps, whether it's on Windows or Mac.

[scotty79]

I used to daily drive Windows 10 for many months before official release. It was great. I wish I could stay on development builds that still had Windows 7 style Start menu.

Sadly now I use Windows 11 just because manufacturer of my laptop didn't bother to ensure that their sound driver worked corrctly on Windows 10.

My mouse lags for seconds when gpu is busy, even with something as trivial as alt-tabbing from a game.

[benhurmarcel]

> cite wanting things to "just work", often claiming that they "don't want making the computer work to become a second job"

I feel this way, yet I've used Linux on the desktop for a decade before, even selecting my hardware for compatibility. Yet even when using "stable" distros like Ubuntu, it did require maintenance regularly. With more hyped distros like Arch it was constant. Sure I was always able to fix it, but I had to do it.

I installed Windows back when I started having kids. I just don't have the time and mental space anymore to dedicate to fixing the OS regularly. I need to be able to let updates happen and not wonder whether I need to have 20 minutes free afterwards to fix something.