[aes256]

Heavy bombing of densely populated areas?

It's rather simple. As a general rule, civilians in the Gaza Strip know if they are near a target. You don't live next to a rocket manufacturing, storage or launch site without knowing about it.

The IDF have gone to great pains to warn civilians not to go near these sites, or to mix with combatants.

They send text messages, drop leaflets, even make phone calls with recorded messages to the affected areas. They perform 'roof knocks' (using non-lethal bombs) to warn civilians they are in the vicinity of a target.

The ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in the Gaza Strip is well below that of any comparable conflict as a result.

[kevingadd]

Sites like the UN school Israel fired White Phosphorus into?

http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2012/01/02/cast-lead-remem...

Give me a break.

[subsystem]

There's no need to use such bad/hateful sources. Here are some better ones:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/series/gaza-war-crimes-inves... http://www.hrw.org/publications/reports?topic=All&region... http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsessio...

[guelo]

You are not disputing that they are bombing a densely populated area. You are saying that they have to take precautions because they are bombing a heavily populated area.

[eitland]

Still they are rather humane compared to their enemy who is actively targeting civilians. And have been doing that so for years.

What is your solution to this conflict that doesn't include wiping the only national state for the Israeli people, created by UN, off the map? Hamas has been quite clear there will be no lasting peace until that has happened as far as I know. (Full disclosure: I don't read arabic so I'm have to trust the translations but they seem to agree.)

[AtlasLion]

sorry, but when you look at civilian death rate and compare both sides the story is very different. whatever measures the IDF claims it is taking, it clearly isn't working.

Edit: As for a solution, read "the General's Son" by Miko Peled. The Son of an Israeli General http://mikopeled.com/category/the-generals-son-by-miko-peled...

[aes256]

> sorry, but when you look at civilian death rate and compare both sides the story is very different. whatever measures the IDF claims it is taking, it clearly isn't working.

In what sense is it not working? According to the latest figures, more than 500 targets have been hit, with 19 combatants and 10 civilians killed.

In most comparable conflicts, the number of civilian casualties far outnumbers the number of combatant casualties.

[kamaal]

Both the parties are to blame here. Killings can't be justified no matter who does it. Its has to stop, terrorizing civilians in large cities is as much a cowardly act as much sending F-16s to bomb a helpless crowd.

[maratd]

I found a problem with your argument. Nobody is sending F-16s to bomb "helpless crowds". Only rocket launching sites.

[kamaal]

And that kills kids, and UN inspectors and civilians. And of course these rocket launchers are wrong too, needless to say their rockets kill kids and civilians too.

[maratd]

Ok, we're moving somewhere. If the F-16s didn't exist, the rockets would still kill all those children. But if the rockets didn't exist, the F-16s wouldn't kill any children! I think we just figured out the solution to the conflict!

[anthonyb]

> Still they are rather humane

Er, what? Go and look up the history of Irgun and Lehi. Israel is just as bad as anyone else in the conflict. Back in the 30s and 40s they were blowing up buses and shooting civilians every day: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks

Israel and Egypt continue to blockade medicine and food into Palestine, and restrict how people can move (bear in mind that there's basically no work in Palestine). How is that not deliberately targeting civilians? http://www.ipsnews.net/2010/07/mideast-israel-chokes-gaza-de...

If you want to see what a solution looks like, just look at Northern Ireland. No aid blockades there...

[aes256]

> Er, what? Go and look up the history of Irgun and Lehi.

What do the actions of dissidents 70 years ago have to do with classifying current Israeli government policy as rather humane?

You could spend the rest of your life investigating past wrongs on both side of this conflict, and you aren't going to get anywhere.

> No aid blockades there...

There is no aid blockade in Gaza either?

[anthonyb]

Because the attitude of Israel hasn't changed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing#60th_a...

The UN and the BBC disagree with you on the blockade: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122404.stm

[aes256]

> Because the attitude of Israel hasn't changed

An utterly preposterous generalization.

> The UN and the BBC disagree with you on the blockade

No they don't. You referred to an 'aid blockade'. Legitimate aid flows freely into the Gaza Strip.

[pyre]

Well, bombing the Gaza Strip is clearly working. The conflict is all but over. Oh wait...

[yonilevy]

It has been proven helpful in reducing the amount of rockets fired at Israeli civillans[1].

I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution?

[1] Number of rockets fired from Gaza Strip to Israel over time; a similar operation took place in December 2008 http://sonoflaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/%D7%A9%D7%9...

[AtlasLion]

So you see it an acceptable to slaughter 1,417 Palestinians, for the "feeling" of safety of Israelis. Palestinians on the other hand, shouldn't expect any safety or dignity.

And again, read this book if you really are thinking about a solution. http://mikopeled.com/category/the-generals-son-by-miko-peled...

[yonilevy]

Had you asked about the death of ~500 Palestinian civillians and ~700 Hamas members in exchange for the improved safety of Israelis under the given conditions, my answer would be yes. I can't really explain it over HN comments though.

I've skimmed through the page linked, couldn't find anything relevant to the current situation. I might read further, thanks for sharing.

[pyre]

  > I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution?

Responses like this are not aimed to be constructive, but to put a stop to reasonable discussion.

If I see that the current strategy is ineffective, I'm not allowed to say so until I have a fully-formed solution that is better? It's better to relentlessly pursue a course of action that is ineffective and has a significant cost in human lives, because 'we' can't think of anything better to do?

[yonilevy]

I didn't mean to stop the discussion, I'm simply trying to understand your point of view (I might learn something). Do you think Israel should sit idly by while the 25K citizens of Sderot can hardly live their lives?

[kaonashi]

Gaza is among the most densely populated areas on Earth. It is simply not feasible for civilians to comply with such orders.

[aes256]

There are both dense and sparsely populated areas of the Strip.

Israel are not carpet-bombing the area, they are performing pinpoint strikes on legitimate military targets.

As a civilian, it is not difficult to avoid those targets.

[guelo]

If it's so easy how could this BBC reporter have avoided his house being hit and his baby killed? http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/11/15...

[aes256]

It's a large-scale armed conflict. Civilians are going to get caught in the crossfire.

Alas, it's a strange sort of conflict in which one side deliberately targets civilians, while the other does everything humanly possible to avoid them.

[jpxxx]

No, this is pretty much the regular kind of conflict. Looks like apartheid, smells like ethnic cleansing, and ends up with plenty of bodies on both sides.

[AutoCorrect]

nope, not the regular kind of conflict at all: for a large portion of our history the greater power would obliterate all resistance in the hostile territory, then settle the area with their own population. The Israelis are showing remarkable restraint.

The land was sparsely inhabited when the Israelis formed their own nation. They spent time, money, and effort making it a better place to live. The Palestinians should call it a day and agree to a truce, before Israel gets serious and wipes them out completely.

[gadders]

Yes, because in Apartheid South Africa, you had black justices on the Supreme Court, just like you have Palestinians Justices on the Israeli Supreme Court. Oh, hold on...

[pyre]

You said:

  > As a civilian, it is not difficult to avoid those
  > targets.

Then you said:

  > It's a large-scale armed conflict. Civilians are
  > going to get caught in the crossfire.

If it's not so hard for civilians to avoid these areas, then why is it inevitable that they be caught in the crossfire?

The idea that Israel is somehow free of 'blood on their hands' because they try to warn people to leave the area for the bombing doesn't make sense. Both sides have plenty of blood on their hands, yet they continue to butt heads using the same tactics over and over again as if something is going to change. Unless they change tactics it's just a war of attrition at this point.

[aes256]

> If it's not so hard to civilians to avoid these areas, then why is it inevitable that they be caught in the crossfire?

Nothing is perfect. Equipment malfunctions, mistaken intel, and human error can all lead to civilian casualties, despite the best precautions.

[anthonyb]

Except when it's, say, a car driving down a populated street.

[kamaal]

As per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza

There are more than 1.5 million people living on the 45 km^2 stretch of land. Are you seriously asking them to run? Run to where? Sea? or towards the sky?

No wonder it has been compared to a concentration camp or an open air prison.

Classic victim blaming to say the least.

Drop leaflets and then get a free permit to bomb them. If some should die, tell them you are the good guys and people who died are evil for dying from your actions.

[aes256]

This isn't carpet-bombing. Israel are only engaging in pinpoint strikes on legitimate military targets.

Where should citizens run? Around 100m away from any rocket manufacturing, storage or launch site should be sufficient.

That means most of the Gaza Strip is safe.

[kamaal]

No sorry you don't address the point everybody else is making in this thread, which is that you seem to suggest bombing is OK as long you pre-inform the people you plan bomb couple of hours before.

[gadders]

If your strategy is to deliberately hide behind civilians when firing your rockets, when those civilians get hit I don't think the responsibility for it lies with Isarel.

[yk]

Civilians in the Gaza Strip do not really have a choice. The Gaza Strip is tiny by most geographical standards, roughly 9 km by 40 km[1]. And a very densely populated area. So even if the IDF tries to protect the civilian population ( and I think they do a comparatively good job), they will necessarily fail.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_strip

[gadders]

I think you can also draw a distinction between deliberately targetting civilians and doing all you can to avoid hitting them.

[scarmig]

Doing all you can to avoid hitting them except, say, not launching missiles in the vicinity of their houses.

I get it: Hamas is a morally monstrous organization. I agree with that wholeheartedly. But there's such a thing as proportionate response. For every Israeli civilian that's killed, many more (greater than 10, at the least) Palestinian civilians are killed. The fact that Hamas is barbaric and doesn't have laser guided missiles doesn't change the fact that innocent people are being bombed to death.

What should Israel do? Well, frack if I know. But "we're trapped in a conflict with a barbaric organization, so we must be barbaric, too, to compete with them" means you can't complain when people call you barbaric.

[gadders]

I don't think they are being barbaric, though. They are launching pinpoint strikes, and doing all they can to avoid civilian casualties. Hamas is deliberately hiding amongst their own civilians to generate casualties.

[illuminate]

"As a general rule, civilians in the Gaza Strip know if they are near a target."

So say, anywhere they are.

http://www.alternet.org/inside-gaza-hospital-israeli-militar...