[eitland]

Still they are rather humane compared to their enemy who is actively targeting civilians. And have been doing that so for years.

What is your solution to this conflict that doesn't include wiping the only national state for the Israeli people, created by UN, off the map? Hamas has been quite clear there will be no lasting peace until that has happened as far as I know. (Full disclosure: I don't read arabic so I'm have to trust the translations but they seem to agree.)

[AtlasLion]

sorry, but when you look at civilian death rate and compare both sides the story is very different. whatever measures the IDF claims it is taking, it clearly isn't working.

Edit: As for a solution, read "the General's Son" by Miko Peled. The Son of an Israeli General http://mikopeled.com/category/the-generals-son-by-miko-peled...

[aes256]

> sorry, but when you look at civilian death rate and compare both sides the story is very different. whatever measures the IDF claims it is taking, it clearly isn't working.

In what sense is it not working? According to the latest figures, more than 500 targets have been hit, with 19 combatants and 10 civilians killed.

In most comparable conflicts, the number of civilian casualties far outnumbers the number of combatant casualties.

[kamaal]

Both the parties are to blame here. Killings can't be justified no matter who does it. Its has to stop, terrorizing civilians in large cities is as much a cowardly act as much sending F-16s to bomb a helpless crowd.

[maratd]

I found a problem with your argument. Nobody is sending F-16s to bomb "helpless crowds". Only rocket launching sites.

[kamaal]

And that kills kids, and UN inspectors and civilians. And of course these rocket launchers are wrong too, needless to say their rockets kill kids and civilians too.

[maratd]

Ok, we're moving somewhere. If the F-16s didn't exist, the rockets would still kill all those children. But if the rockets didn't exist, the F-16s wouldn't kill any children! I think we just figured out the solution to the conflict!

[guelo]

Although you never hear about it in most Western media Gaza militants also claim their attacks are responses to IDF attacks. The current escalation started when IDF killed a mentally challenged man and than a kid in an incursion a week ago. You can read about the tit for tats that have been going on here http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/how-israel-...

To always blame the Gaza side as the aggressors and as terrorists is just to swallow IDF propaganda whole and uncritically.

Did you know that before this current escalation Israel had struck Gaza hundred of times this year and killed 312 people including 61 kids, http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/bodies-for-... Who are the real terrorists?

Oh, and it just so happens that there's an Israel election coming up.

[mikevm]

Nice try, with your "unbiased" sources. How about you check the timeline here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_atta...

Basically your narrative is the one I see on a bunch of pro-Palestinian propaganda sites, and nowhere else. How about this article: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/08/world/meast/gaza-violence/... ?

Frankly, I'm used to Palestinians making up damning narratives of events. Watch Pierre Rehov's The Road to Jenin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9kx3UntoAE), or Richard Landes' Pallywood (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL8ANySuSuk)

[mkr-hn]

> use ROCKET on F-16

[maratd]

That works too.

[anthonyb]

> Still they are rather humane

Er, what? Go and look up the history of Irgun and Lehi. Israel is just as bad as anyone else in the conflict. Back in the 30s and 40s they were blowing up buses and shooting civilians every day: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks

Israel and Egypt continue to blockade medicine and food into Palestine, and restrict how people can move (bear in mind that there's basically no work in Palestine). How is that not deliberately targeting civilians? http://www.ipsnews.net/2010/07/mideast-israel-chokes-gaza-de...

If you want to see what a solution looks like, just look at Northern Ireland. No aid blockades there...

[aes256]

> Er, what? Go and look up the history of Irgun and Lehi.

What do the actions of dissidents 70 years ago have to do with classifying current Israeli government policy as rather humane?

You could spend the rest of your life investigating past wrongs on both side of this conflict, and you aren't going to get anywhere.

> No aid blockades there...

There is no aid blockade in Gaza either?

[anthonyb]

Because the attitude of Israel hasn't changed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing#60th_a...

The UN and the BBC disagree with you on the blockade: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122404.stm

[aes256]

> Because the attitude of Israel hasn't changed

An utterly preposterous generalization.

> The UN and the BBC disagree with you on the blockade

No they don't. You referred to an 'aid blockade'. Legitimate aid flows freely into the Gaza Strip.

[pyre]

Well, bombing the Gaza Strip is clearly working. The conflict is all but over. Oh wait...

[yonilevy]

It has been proven helpful in reducing the amount of rockets fired at Israeli civillans[1].

I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution?

[1] Number of rockets fired from Gaza Strip to Israel over time; a similar operation took place in December 2008 http://sonoflaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/%D7%A9%D7%9...

[AtlasLion]

So you see it an acceptable to slaughter 1,417 Palestinians, for the "feeling" of safety of Israelis. Palestinians on the other hand, shouldn't expect any safety or dignity.

And again, read this book if you really are thinking about a solution. http://mikopeled.com/category/the-generals-son-by-miko-peled...

[yonilevy]

Had you asked about the death of ~500 Palestinian civillians and ~700 Hamas members in exchange for the improved safety of Israelis under the given conditions, my answer would be yes. I can't really explain it over HN comments though.

I've skimmed through the page linked, couldn't find anything relevant to the current situation. I might read further, thanks for sharing.

[pyre]

  > I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution?

Responses like this are not aimed to be constructive, but to put a stop to reasonable discussion.

If I see that the current strategy is ineffective, I'm not allowed to say so until I have a fully-formed solution that is better? It's better to relentlessly pursue a course of action that is ineffective and has a significant cost in human lives, because 'we' can't think of anything better to do?

[yonilevy]

I didn't mean to stop the discussion, I'm simply trying to understand your point of view (I might learn something). Do you think Israel should sit idly by while the 25K citizens of Sderot can hardly live their lives?

[kamaal]

They absolutely can't. Yes, you are right.

The alternatives? Two state solution needs to go ahead. But Israel seems to be in full steam to stop the current UN bid. At the same time they don't want a one state solution either(Which more or less is sort of inevitable now).

Their neighbors don't love them much. No matter who they are, the rulers of those nations might, out of force. And that more or less is only to save their seats. But Arab spring has proven nothing is permanent. Egypt only looked super pro Israel under Mubarak and now is super pro Palestine just months after.

Absolutely the worst sort of geographical location to be and form your nation. Unless you want to be in a perpetual state of war, crisis and fighting. Yes Israel seems to have an upper hand in military wise currently, but as I said what is permanent? But Israel was not formed to be in an infinite state of war, but for Jews around the world to live in peace and without fear.

A big deadlock situation, dominated by massive distrust between both parties.

[yonilevy]

The problem is nobody on the Palestinian side seems interested in the two state solution. Mahmoud Abbas refused a very generous offer in 2009[1], and since then kept refusing to further negotiate. Hamas aren't much into negotiating either, so there's no one to talk to.

My hope is that one of the locks in this situation is held by Iran, and once it's released we may see new opportunities.

[1]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05...

[johncoltrane]

What about the people who "lived their lives" in Najd before being expelled to Gaza in order to install another town with a name in another language and a population from other countries on their own land?

I would be pissed. Very seriously pissed.

Do you think the people of Palestine should sit idly while some foreigners grab their lands and park them like animals in a reserve? Do you seriously think that what was done was right and justified and that the Palestinians don't have valid reasons for being pissed off against Israel?

How would you feel if what happened to Palestine happened to the country you live in?