[gradstudent]

Weighing up a Neo vs Framework 12 for my kids. The Neo is nicer, but I'll probably get the Framework even though it's more expensive. Apple products seem to have a fixed shelf life; a certain number of years of support and then the machine is slowly incompatible with apps that have since moved on to newer versions of macOS. Meanwhile Framework supports Linux and is still providing hardware/software upgrade paths for their old machines.

[mjamesaustin]

Just my personal perspective, every Apple laptop I've ever owned has lasted 10+ years. Their phones may have some planned obsolescence, but I don't find that to be the case at all with their computers.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

I still use a 2012 MacBook Air 11” for running Zoom calls.

It’s stuck in Catalina, but I still get updates.

Most apps run fine on it.

Apple kit lasts a long time.

[spaqin]

I use a 2012 Samsung ultrabook with Arch for light coding, web and limited image editing sometimes while traveling; while fairly beat up, recently I replaced the battery in it for 10 bucks in 20 minutes; it was also probably like a fifth of the price. And with Linux you don't have to worry about a specific kit lasting a long time - it just runs anyway.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

Cool. I wasn’t trying to posture. I was just mentioning my own experience.

My experience, for the last 40 years, has been people automatically attacking me, for using Apple kit. I think that Linux folks had the same, for a while, but these days, it’s a lot more accepted.

People just blindly hate Apple, and drop all semblance of reason, when considering the platform (and people who program for it).

[alamortsubite]

I don't think many people blindly hate Apple, but it's fair to point out your Catalina install is obsolete.

If I could install Linux on the Neo, I'd probably buy one. My daily-driver is also from 2012 (XPS L321X). It's not hobbled by the OS like your Air or the Neo, however, and happily runs the latest release from Debian.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

> I don't think many people blindly hate Apple

40 years of being on the receiving end of that hatred says different.

A lot of people really hate Apple. I am not one to judge the validity of their rancor. It tends to be more complicated than "Napster Bad; Beer Good.".

But there is no question that it gets nasty, personal, and very, very tiresome.

[ymolodtsov]

In my experience their phones last far longer than Androids. Only in the last few years Samsung and Pixel have switched to at least 7 years (now it's the question of whether the hardware will suffice).

Until it broke, I was still using my 2018 iPad just last year.

[Ancapistani]

My primary device is still my 2018 iPad Pro. I have lots to choose from, but it’s perfect.

[DanielHB]

Old intel macbook pros definitely didn't last 10+ years, the overheating problems really reduced their lifetime.

[christophilus]

I have an Intel MacBook Pro from 2013. It’s running Linux and my kids now use it as a SNES emulator.

[fainpul]

My personal perspective: 2 out of 3 MacBook Pro, I worked with, had expanding batteries after about 5 years. Replacement was a big hassle and the new no-name batteries are nowhere near as good as the original ones.

I sure wish it was as easy as a battery replacement on a Framework laptop (with an original part).

I know the Neo has easier battery replacement (not glued in), but still it has an iFixit rating of 6/10 whereas the Framework 12 has a 10/10.

[gradstudent]

I think this is less true than it used to be? I ran my MBP2013 into the ground after 10+ years, but my circa 2018 imac retina is stuck on pre-Catalina, installing which requires opencore patcher anyway. Hardware is fine, but it's increasingly less useful as a daily driver on account of software.

[philistine]

You're absolutely right; the Apple Silicon transition really lowered the years of support of their later Intel machines. The same thing happened with the G5 machines, and the last Motorola 68000 Macintoshes in the early 90s.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/some-macs-are-gettin...

[71bw]

My 2015 MacBook Air, purchased new in 2017, was already practically dead by 2021.

[msh]

How

I still use my 2015 macbook air (purchased in 2015) as a secondary computer. I installed linux on it last year as it was not getting software updates anymore.

Other than one of the USB ports being a bit flaky it works perfectly fine.

[eeixlk]

As someone who keeps apple laptops for 7 or so years but also has encountered numerous macbook pro meltdowns both applecare covered and not, 10+ is a crazy number and you'll probably need to provide some proof for that to be reasonable.

[benoau]

Why is 10+ unreasonable?

The M1 was sold right up until last year in new devices so it presumably has another decade of support left - that'll be a 15 year span! It certainly wouldn't make sense to declare M1 devices trash while supporting the Neo with almost directly equivalent performance.

The M5 is so much more powerful it may still be useful throughout the 2040s.

[maccard]

Anecdotally, my path was 2010 macbook pro -> 2015 macbook pro -> 2021 M1, with each device lasting about 10 years, and keeping 2 in flight at once. The 2015 one is showing it's age, and is likely to be replaced this year or next. Running linux on it isn't an option due to all the nonsense involved in suspend/sleep and the effect it has on battery life.

I also have a 2007 Intel mac with firewire that I use for some audio stuff that's still going strong with just an SSD swap.

[nottorp]

> every Apple laptop I've ever owned has lasted 10+ years

.. as long as you avoided the emoji keyboard era, or never used an emoji keyboard laptop outdoors or even with your windo open :)

I have laptops much older than the ~2018 that work perfectly. But not only the 2018's keyboard broke, but to add insult to the injury they used a display cable that was too short in that generation and that broke too.

That is Cook's legacy :)

[carlosjobim]

Exactly my experience as well. Macs were great until 2016 and great after 2020. Between that the hardware was worst in class.

[nottorp]

Oh the 2018 should still work with an external monitor and keyboard. I could even get the display cable replaced.

What I can’t do is replace the keyboard with ont that won’t break again in 3 months.

[deaux]

Tahoe (in particular Liquid Glass) is the harbinger of bringing the iOS planned obsolescence to Mac. It has begun.

[shrubby]

Linux on Mac Pro 5.1 from 2009 and 2017 MacBook Air, both working perfectly.

I prefer actually both to my corporate issue M4 one with MacOS.

I'm not a fan of the Mac UX, but the hardware seems pretty damn good and the lifespan extends with it.

If I'd have no limitations though I'd prefer the Framework, but not very clearly.

[philistine]

Framework as a company is not old enough to even hit the limits of Apple's macOS support: around seven years.

[zarzavat]

There are ways to patch around arbitrary "unsupported" status. What tends to reduce the real support time is the hardware itself (e.g. non-Metal supporting GPUs). However, M series SoC are likely to have support for a very long time. It's not like the Intel days when the underlying hardware was changing drastically from generation to generation with a multitude of CPUs and GPUs that all had to be supported in the OS. Apple has a dozen SoCs to support in Mac OS and that's it.

As such, if you buy a M5 MacBook Air today you are very likely to get software support that lasts until the laptop is physically falling apart.

[chias]

I excitedly bought a Framework 12 when it first came out, since I figured it'd be a nice thing to travel with (my typical laptop is the 11th-gen 13). However the 12 has just sat under my bed since it arrived. It's actually the same size and weight as the 13 so there's no real reason to use it when traveling, and everything about the 13 feels better in general. Overall I'm fairly disappointed by the 12.

I haven't held a Neo myself, but it seems like a solid device. Personally I would probably go for the Neo.

[0xmagic0]

Interesting! I was not aware of the framework laptops. I was more familiar with System76 and and Tuxedo laptops, but I wouldn't call those kids laptops.

[izacus]

The question is not as much shelf life, as whether you want your kids to be builders or consumers.

[carlosjobim]

Do you want your kids to play the piano or repair the piano?

Should they learn to drive a car or repair a car.

Etc.

[DANmode]

If my kids play or drive, and can’t eventually tune the instrument or put air in the tires of the car, I’ll be disappointed.

[carlosjobim]

No piano player can tune their instrument, they call in professionals. It's quite difficult.

Putting air in the tires is on the level of charging the battery.

But messing with drivers and config files and antivirus and RAM - that's not being creative or productive, that's being used by the machine instead of using the machine.

No specialist knowledge should be needed to use a computer, and thankfully Apple is providing that experience for people who are interested in what the computer can do for them. I remember when hardware had to be configured with COM ports and whatnot. Networks had to be configured with gateways and masks and whatnot. What a nightmare.

[DANmode]

Got me. I want them to know the piano needs tuning.

If you’re a developer and can’t diagnose a broken Ethernet port on the dock for your MacBook, I’m (perhaps silently) disappointed in you.

[vermilingua]

You can put Linux on Macbooks, you can build on macOS.

[TheDong]

You cannot run Linux on the macbook neo at the time of writing, unless you mean in a VM, and the processor + memory are barely enough to reasonably manage that. Even a mid-sized rust project, or a nixos build, would OOM for a VM.

[embedding-shape]

Environments foster certain behaviors, even restrictions foster certain behaviors, sometimes the opposite of what you try to restrict. There are no right answers :)

[charcircuit]

All laptops have a limited shelf life if you want competitive performance and security.