[voxl]

Part of the problem is the conflation of Zionism with genocidal government. There is no room for nuiance. A Zionist can want Israelites to live in peace where they currently are and not harm others, and certainly not commit horrible atrocities against other people.

Yet, even this kind of Zionist is under their own genocidal threat, "from the river to the sea", and instead of their being a sensible perspective of "maybe let's not kill a bunch of any people's" we are left with the never ending debate or whose worse.

[aeonfox]

Are there any polls (or any educated guesses) gauging what proportion of people who identify as Zionists want equal status with all Palestinians (particularly democratic rights) within the bounds of what was once Mandatory Palestine?

[cnd78A]

* A Zionist can want Israelites to live in peace where they currently are* = they want to live in peace in a land they took by murdering its inhabitant. You can have Jews living in Palestine though but it's not Zionism.

[aibrahem]

From the beginning, the founders of the Zionist movement were completely on board with the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Palestinians from their lands to establish the Israeli state.

[pandaman]

>is under their own genocidal threat, "from the river to the sea"

So, when Zionists used the same language [1] it's for peace but if goyim do then it's a threat, and a genocidal one, no less?

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea#Hist...

[nielsbot]

The only way Zionism can be moral is if it abandons the idea of a Jewish supremacist nation.

[DaveFr]

Nobody says this about any Islamic country

[basilgohar]

There are no Islamic countries. All Muslim-majority countries remain power structures intended to maintain the power of the powerful and use Islam as part of their means to do so. To call them otherwise or label them Islamic is fruitless.

We do the same for Israel. They claim Judiasm but we know they do not represent it. The same for all so-called Islamic countries.

[nielsbot]

Sure they do. But Zionists are the ones that profess that a Jewish-supremacist state is a good idea.

[4MOAisgoodenuf]

When an “Islamic country” starts getting several billions of dollars in aid from the US and begins “quadruple tapping” civilians, then I suppose there will be some outrage.

In the meantime, this outrage appears to be more based in the criminal conduct of a genocidal state than any religious amenity

[rexpop]

Several Muslim-majority countries have received billions in U.S. aid for decades, not just recently. The clearest examples are Egypt, Jordan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and, in humanitarian years, Syria and Yemen.

Hell, Pakistan got more than $19 billion in U.S. aid from 2002–2010, plus a $7.5 billion non-military package over five years, and Afghanistan got more than $109 billion total through USAID.

Egypt gets about $2 billion a year on average since 1979, mostly military aid.

[DaveFr]

??? The US gives billions in aid to Jordan and Egypt, who torture and kill dissident civilians. And, it's not a genocide to lose a war you started.

[SilverElfin]

How do you think Islam spread? Peacefully? Look at history. And look at Islamic texts that preach the subjugation and killing of anyone who isn’t Islamic. It’s much more of a supremacist culture than any other.

[22122]

islam wasn't the only religion to have an empire. and islam spread through voluntary conversion, for hundreds of years the subjects of the islamic empires remained majority the pre conquest religion. also no muslim empire ever conquered indonesia and malaysia, yet they are two muslim majority countries today.

[SilverElfin]

> islam spread through voluntary conversion

False.

> hundreds of years the subjects of the islamic empires remained majority the pre conquest religion

Even if this was true, which I dispute, Islam imposes all sorts of methods to oppress other religions. Like special taxes for those who aren’t Muslims.

> no muslim empire ever conquered indonesia and malaysia, yet they are two muslim majority countries today

And now these countries have inhumane systems like sharia courts.

[gizzlon]

The US this week invoked God when bombing people

Of course, Iran does to, but let's not pretend everything would be peaceful without Islam

[olivermuty]

Yeah christians would never go crusading like that!

Hmmm, I wonder where the word «crusade» comes from though

[SilverElfin]

Who said anything to defend Christianity? Are you really using it to justify Islam calling for violence against people with other beliefs?

[happymellon]

Evertone said this about Daesh.

[SilverElfin]

Yep, and this is the obvious dishonesty of the people who single out Israel. It’s one country with a Jewish culture, where non-Jewish people also prosper in large numbers. But there are MANY officially Islamic nations where there is a state religion, where laws and religion are mixed together, and where violence/oppression of minorities is normalized and welcomed. Not a single pro-Gaza or anti-Israel activist will acknowledge this. It’s dishonest. Israel is much more egalitarian and frankly, civilized.

[deaux]

> Not a single pro-Gaza or anti-Israel activist will acknowledge this

Go easy on the Kool-Aid.

It's the opposite; those things are not talked about because they are universally acknowledged by anyone except the groups themselves as bad.

The problem with Israel is that you have a huge number of people who are not even Israeli gleefully supporting a genocide, either overtly or by doing everything in their power to silence anyone calling it out. This is a stark contrast: the only people actively supporting the oppression of minorities in Syria or Saudi Arabia are those carrying it out. There are no large groups of powerful people solely comprised of Americans in the US or Germans in Germany who do their best to silence criticism of Saudi Arabia. I'm sure you'll be able to find a few PR firms that Saudi paid, or a few people with business interests there who did such things, but it's completely incomparable to the Zionist lobby and the active carrying out of its interests.

[nielsbot]

What’s dishonest is your racist defense of a murderous and genocidal country that cynically uses Judaism as a shield for war crimes. You should really think deeply about how you’re conflating the Zionist state with the Jewish people… not sure a lot of them are in board with your project. There is no world in which a Jewish-supremacist state is righteous.

As for equal rights, it is to laugh. Israel is an apartheid state. Ask any expert in the subject.

Let’s talk about the racist death-penalty-for-Palestinians law that just passed to Ben Gvir drinking champagne and to celebratory prayers in the Knesset. Or what about the fact that gay people cannot legally marry? Or that protesting the genocide gets you brutally arrested. Not to mention the ghetto that Israel has turned Gaza into. (shame on the Zionists!) What about no right of return to the people who lived on the land that Israel stole and continues to steal? (let me guess: all in self defense!) It goes on and on.

Israel is indefensible. It should be dismantled.

[_DeadFred_]

Why did this repose by someone else get flagged dead? It's factual and provides additional context. Deng why do allow these posts but then allow such one sided 'discussion'?

"The penalty imposed by the Palestinian authority for selling their property to a Jew is the death sentence. Conversely, the Palestinians or Jews or Christians inside Israel don’t face any such restrictions."

[SilverElfin]

Your comment is an example of that dishonesty, since you’re ignoring all the Islamic supremacist states while stating your opinion that Israel is supremacist. Something like 20% of Israel’s population are Muslims, and they’re prospering there, so you can’t call it supremacist. On the other hand, officially Islamic nations are explicitly supremacist. They have state religions and laws against blasphemy and rampant systemic discrimination.

[aibrahem]

Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and Israeli group B’Tselem have published reports characterizing Israel’s legal framework (especially considering the occupied territories) as apartheid or involving systemic discrimination. I’m not sure what more can be said.

[C6JEsQeQa5fCjE]

Actions, not words. Otherwise we'd be believing that a certain political party in the 40s Germany was simply all about work setting you free.

Zionists have showed what they are about through their actions ever since establishing their ethnosupremacist state. And they showed that genocide is not a red line to them over the past 2 and a half years. What they say they are about on paper is no longer relevant.

[sph]

> Part of the problem is the conflation of Zionism with genocidal government. There is no room for nuiance

This blame falls squarely on Israelis and Jewish people as a whole for conflating Zionism, Israel and Jewishness as a single thing, and branding anyone who dared to be critical of Zionism as antisemitic. Now they try to distance themselves and rightly so, but it is their fault that the victim agenda backfired terribly.

I have expressed my solidarity to non-Zionist Jewish people in a previous comment, but still all I hear is victimization at how the world at large treats them rather than real anger and disgust at what the State of Israel is doing in their name. Where are the angry non-Zionist protests? Where are the people renouncing their dual citizenships? The reaction is still very subdued for a genocide in massive scale, and at times it is hard for us gentiles to feel sorry for their apathy.