[cameldrv]

Exactly. The current world population is 8.3 billion and is expected to peak at 10.3 billion in 2080 and then begin declining. Now, there are a number of other reasons we might have food shortages, but population per se I don't think is a significant factor.

[capitainenemo]

Even if food shortages aren't an issue, reducing the amount of land dedicated to food production is a win for ecosystems.

Not saying people have to go vegetarian, but reducing meat consumption or using more efficiently produced meats (in terms of land use) would overall make the world a nicer and more interesting place.

And, really, with the whole neu5gc thing, it might be that humans would be better off focusing on chickens and seafood anyway (clams being a pretty good option for seafood that is relatively environmentally friendly).

[tracker1]

Grass fed cattle can use land that is generally not fit for vegetation farming... because of excess rocks, etc. Ruminants that are being naturally (grass) fed are also regenerative in terms of soil health.

They don't tend to "bulk up" as much as conventional (grain fed and/or finished) options though, so are more expensive to produce... the gas emissions are another issue that is largely different for grass fed, where the off gases are roughly the same as the grass's natural breakdown would release anyway.

In terms of water use, naturally grass fed cattle are mostly using water that fell on the land as rain in terms of how much water they use. It's not much from municipal sources, unlike vegetation farming.

Of course there are other ruminant options that are more efficient than cattle, such as goats and sheep, with similar benefits to the soil.

It just bugs me that cattle gets such a bad repuation... especially in that it's one of the few things I can eat without issue.

[capitainenemo]

So, I was saying ecosystems. Filling the world with cows is not the same as natural ecosystems.

Also, kurzgesagt did a pretty good episode on meat production (edit - they did several, but one was on the production demands in terms of energy and environment), and if I'm to trust their figures, the "cattle grazing exclusively on the pampas" is far from the majority of world cattle. If it was, that probably would be an improvement, esp if it was done in a way that allowed other species to exist too (maybe bring some buffalo back?). The percentage would be dramatically improved if finishing lots were eliminated though (still a minority though). So maybe that's a simple option. Plus, that's the cruelest part of the cow's existence.

https://ourworldindata.org/global-land-for-agriculture (crazy amount of habitable surface of planet is livestock) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-024-01398-4 (study on what percent of production is actually "low-intensity grazing on marginal land")

Again, not saying eliminate, just... reduce...

[tracker1]

I don't think the answer is reduce though... I think it's increase... humans wiped out so many of the ruminant animals (buffalo mainly) that kept the grasslands healthy... we've largely over-farmed in the interim since. We need more ruminants, not less.

This means raising much more than we currently do, and probably a reduction in slaughter numbers for the next 50+ years to increase the domestic supply. Can't speak for other nations... but it's literally expanding grasslands as opposed to desert.

[capitainenemo]

Yes. I saw that TED talk about desertification being reversed by ruminants, and while it got a lot of critics, it had some pretty good points. But, those ruminants would be better off not being beef cattle in terms of biodiversity. Also, if they were beef cattle due to the lack of anything better, hopefully it would be short term, and if you're making a case for use of marginal land, they really shouldn't be finished in a feed lot, since that is using a lot of cropland to support that.

... and only some places would (possibly) benefit from that.

[tracker1]

I think cattle are fine... though I'm also okay with more Bison, goats, sheep, deer, elk, etc. I'm also more than okay with less use of feed lots and direct butchery of grass fed ruminants.

As for marginal land... personally, I can only handle mostly eating meat and eggs, doing much better with ruminants. I'd be just fine with the majority of uninhabited lands being used by mostly wild ruminants over any kind of farming, especially farming that is using chemical fertilizers and stripping the land.

[_DeadFred_]

I mean we have the strategic buffalo herd in Montana, and the cattle grazing you talk about is often by for profit farmers on public land.

Seems like we could reintroduce buffalo from our reserve, a much better solution than government managed/subsidized free range cattlemen. Get government out of the cattle business, end government handouts and all that other free market talking point stuff.

[mcv]

> Grass fed cattle can use land that is generally not fit for vegetation farming

Can, but that doesn't mean it always is. There's lots of cattle that never even comes outside, and is fed food that humans could also eat.

I recall reading that during the famine in Ethiopia in the 1980s, Ethiopian farmers were exporting beans to feed cattle in Europe because that was more profitable than feeding people in Ethiopia.

Beef is simply extremely inefficient. And so, unfortunately, is cheese (I can do without beef, but not without cheese). If cattle is grazing on land that's simply not usable for anything else, that's a completely different matter, but that's not how most cattle are fed.

[neuralRiot]

>Not saying people have to go vegetarian

I’ve vegan for 20+ years and find weird the obsession people have with meat that without even talking about milk. Literally there are hundreds of alternatives better for health, for the environment and for the animals yet we keep looking for justifications to consume them.

[mcv]

Yeah. I used to be vegetarian (I eat some meat again), and I love cheese, but I'm well aware that it's almost as bad as beef. Quitting cheese feels like a bigger sacrifice to me than quitting meat. But I've been reducing my cheese consumption lately. That's something at least.

[aziaziazi]

If that helps, some non-cheese that might trigger your taste buds:

- Brewer/nutritional/super yeast (with a bit of oil and/or smashed cashew): in place of Parmesan

- Tahini: less cheesy but equally bold taste as yeast

- Lactic acid fermented Tofu: whey cheese.

- Tempeh: my favorite, just oiled-panned with salt and pepper. Between chicken and soft-Camembert

[capitainenemo]

I'm not arguing for ditching cheese either (I love cheese, esp goat cheese - which conveniently is often a more pleasant experience for the goats) but here is a recipe that I quite liked for a cheese-like cashew/brewer's yeast spread. I'm pretty sure I transcribed this correctly. Let me know if anything seems off :)

    Pimento Cheese Spread
    Blend until smooth:
    1c. water (may use water from pimentos)
    ¾ c. cashew nuts or sunflower seeds
    2 T sesame seeds
    1¼  tsp salt
    3 T Brewer's yeast flakes
    ⅔ c. rolled oats (only if being used for lasagna)
    1 tsp onion powder
    ⅛ tsp garlic powder
    ⅛ tsp dill seed
    ½ c. pimentos
    ¼ c. lemon juice (or to taste)
    May add 2 T. arrowroot or cornstarch if used for spread

[aziaziazi]

Thanks, will try it! I understand TeaSPoon but what are the c. and T. units ?

[neuralRiot]

The flavor is completely different but the umami of miso is crazy, if it would not be so salty i’d eat it by the spoonful. Honestly I don’t miss cheese at all, there are some replacements good enough for the occasional sandwich or pizza.

[ndsipa_pomu]

I'm not convinced by some of those. I'm a pescetarian, so I still eat cheese, but I enjoy unusual foods.

I don't find tahini to taste anything like yeast/cheese, though to be fair I mainly use tahini in hummus.

I'm not familiar with lactic acid fermented Tofu - does that go by a different name?

Tempeh seems more nutty than cheese-like to me, though I rarely eat it as my wife doesn't like the flavour or texture of it.

Personally, I'd recommend Japanese Natto if you're after a cheesy flavour - it's soy beans fermented in straw/hay and ends up becoming somewhat slimy/stringy, so it's a bit of an acquired taste.

[aziaziazi]

> Natto Any advice to try it? I haven’t had the courage yet but I guess it's time to face my fears.

> lactic acid fermented Tofu The english name of the one I buy is "Lactofermented Tofu" [0], although their ingredients [1] lacks a coagulant but have ferment instead: I guess the tonyu+ferment produce lactic acid, which then coagulate the fermented tonyu into tofu. I wonder if that make a big difference with classic recipes that ferment the tofu directly [2].

> Tempeh It's a fresh product and the taste really differ depending on:

- Ripeness. It can be ripped a few days to build an intense flavor when homemade or bought fresh.

- Ingredients. Same fungus (Rhizopus oligosporus) can be used to ferment others legumes/grains. I once made black-lentil-tempeh which had a very strong gorgonzola flavor with a firm and non-fat texture.

0 https://lesojami.com/en/our-ranges/

1 (french) https://lesojami.com/produit/tofu-lactofermente-ail-des-ours...

2 https://revolutionfermentation.com/en/blogs/tempeh-soy-grain...

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

>Not saying people have to go vegetarian, but reducing meat consumption or using more efficiently produced meats (in terms of land use) would overall make the world a nicer and more interesting place.

I've seen articles and threads like this for decades at this point. And the only thing any of you have convinced me of is that I must start securing my own production of meat. This is, I think, the exact opposite of "more efficiently" at least from your point of view. I will be unlikely to reach the feed-to-gain ratios that professionals regularly achieve.

Swine and poultry already in progress, beef and more exotic stuff within the next 2 years.

[capitainenemo]

shrug poultry is already several times more efficient than beef in regular production (to say nothing of if your coop just has chickens wandering around finding their own food), and healthier for you. And hopefully your swine and poultry are having overall decent lives. And, if your beef is entirely grass fed (I doubt you can afford a finishing lot) you're still overall not using cropland to fatten up cows (but maybe that's your goal, who knows)

Anyway, you do you. Just offering my opinion on this 'cause it seemed like a good place to do it.

[krater23]

Yes, we could concreting this land and build housings and streets.

[jamespo]

or could eat something less likely to give you bowel cancer