[atomicnumber3]

I'm deeply convinced that there's 2 reasons we don't see real takes like this: 1) is because these people are quietly appreciating the 2-50% uplift you get from sanely using LLMs instead of constantly posting sycophantic or doomer shit for clout and/or VC financing. 2) is because the real version of LLM coding is boring and unsexy. It either involves generating slop in one shot to POC, then restarting from scratch for the real thing or doing extensive remediation costing far more than the initial vibe effort cost; or it involves generally doing the same thing we've been doing since the assembler was created except now I don't need to remember off-hand how to rig up boilerplate for a table test harness in ${current_language}, or if I wrote a snippet with string ops and if statements and I wish it were using regexes and named capture groups, it's now easy to mostly-accurately convert it to the other form instead of just sighing and moving on.

But that's boring nerd shit and LLMs didn't change who thinks boring nerd shit is boring or cool.

[zozbot234]

> because the real version of LLM coding is boring and unsexy

Some people do find it unfun, saying it deprives them of the happy "flow" of banging out code. Reaching "flow" when prompting LLMs arguably requires a somewhat deeper understanding of them as a proper technical tool, as opposed to a complete black box, or worse, a crystal ball.

[devmor]

There’s also just the negative association factor.

I use LLMs in my every day work. I’m also a strong critic of LLMs and absolutely loathe the hype cycle around them.

I have done some really cool things with copilot and Claude and I keep sharing them to within my working circle because I simply don’t want to interact that much with people who aren’t grounded on the subject.

[cossray]

I would be interested to hear your take on Copilot vs Claude. I have used Copilot (trial) in VS Code and I found it to mostly meet my needs. It could generate some plans and code, which I could review on the go. I found this very natural to me as I never felt 'left behind' in whatever code the AI was generating. However, most of the posts I see here are on Claude (I haven't tried it) and very few mentions of Copilot. What is your impression about them and the use cases each is strong in?

[cassidy_co]

(Context: I'm a different person, but have thoughts on this)

I started using Copilot at work because that's what the company policy was. It's a pretty strict environment, but it's perfectly serviceable and gets a lot of fresh, vetted updates. IDE integration with vs code was a huge plus for me.

Claude code is definitely a messier, buggier frontend for the LLM. It's clunkier to navigate and it has much more primitive context management tools. IDE integration is clunky with vs code, too.

However, if you want to take advantage of the Anthropic subscription services, I've found Claude Code is the way to go... Simply because Anthropic works hard to lock you into their ecosystem if you want the sweet discounts. I'm greedy, so I bit the bullet for all of the LLM coding stuff I do in my personal life.

[devmor]

Copilot isn’t really a competing product to Claude - in fact I use Claude through copilot.

I have found in general that for the type of work I do (senior to staff level engineering, 90-10 research to programming) that Claude Opus is the only model really worth my time - but I just really like the Copilot CLI tooling.

[avadodin]

So, are you using it for the 10%?

I do use LLMs to learn about new subjects but we already only bill 10% for "coding" and that's inflating it to cover other parts.

I can't imagine that slopping it up would be a great decision. Having alien code that no one ever understood between a bug report and a solution. Anthropic isn't going to give us money for our lost contracts, is it?

[devmor]

I would say I'm using it for about half of the "10%" and and a quarter of the "90%".

> I can't imagine that slopping it up would be a great decision. Having alien code that no one ever understood between a bug report and a solution. Anthropic isn't going to give us money for our lost contracts, is it?

Absolutely, that's a real concern. The only time I will let it loose on something is a throwaway project to test something, or a small tool that I know I can write deterministic tests for.

On codebases of any significant size, I'm using it more like a custom domain Stackoverflow search engine.

[marhee]

Software engineering is only about 20% writing code (the famous 40-20-40 split). Most people use it only for the first 40%, and very succesfully (im in that camp). If you use it to write your code you can theorettically maybe get 20% time improvement initially, but you loose a lot of time later redoing it or unraveling. Not worth bothering.

[bdangubic]

20% is one of those cool lies SWEs have been able to push through (like “our jobs are oh so very special we can’t really estimate it, we’ll create an entire sub-industries with our industry to make sure everyone knows we can’t estimate”).

SWEs spend 20% of the time writing code for exactly the same reason brick-layers spend 20% of their time laying bricks

[skydhash]

The other 80% is spent on the following:

- A lot of research. Libraries documentation, best practice, sample solutions, code history,... That could be easily 60% of the time. Even when you're familiar with the project, you're always checking other parts of the codebase and your notes.

- Communication. Most projects involve a team and there's a dependency graph between your work. There may be also a project manager dictating things and support that wants your input on some cases.

- Thinking. Code is just the written version of a solution. The latter needs to exists first. So you spend a lot of time wrangling with the problem and trying to balance tradeoffs. It also involves a lot of the other points.

Coding is a breeze compared to the others. And if you have setup a good environment, it's even enjoyable.

[megous]

It can be any number of things. From spending hour or two just writing requirements, to giving an example of existing curated code from another project you wrote and would like to emulate, or rewriting existing apps in a different language/architecture (sort of like translating), to serving as a QA agent or reviewer for the LLM agent, or vice versa.

I kinda like how you can just use it for anything you like. I have bazillion personal projects, I can now get help with, polish up, simplify, or build UI for, and it's nice. Anything from reverse engineering, to data extraction, to playing with FPGAs, is just so much less tedious and I can focus on the fun parts.