[kqr]

> Having difficulty projecting force from the air with fighter bombers launched from air craft carriers and refueling caravans from the Indian Ocean or Mediterranean Sea

This is not to be underestimated. It is very rare to be able to project military power far from one's capital. That the US is able to do it at all is remarkable. We should not expect it to be easy.

[venzaspa]

This is in large part because the US relies on their bases in allied countries at their grace.

[ericmay]

We can remove them and do the isolationist thing as many have been clamoring for. Then we have no need for bases in Europe or the Middle East. Gulf States can figure out how to live with a nuclear armed Iran or one that has a repository of thousands of missiles to blow up gulf state infrastructure when they misbehave. We can remove the bases in Europe too, and when Russia invades Lithuania the Spanish and Germans can take care of it.

Or perhaps these bases aren’t just in allied countries “at their grace”. These alliance systems don’t just solely benefit America.

[protocolture]

I mean, theres meant to be intangibles, and some financial support. Most of the financial support got cut by doge and the rest would go with leaving NATO. The intangibles literally never eventuate. Australia tried to invoke ANZUS with East Timor and got brushed off, despite the various US facilities in Aus being sold to the australian voter as insurance that the US would help if requested.

Honestly the US as a strategic partner is just a joke. its nothing but sigint.

Lets not even start on AUKUS.

[ericmay]

I don't disagree with you, but just pushing back on this high-and-mighty "we let you be here" sensibility from the OP. For some reason folks seem to have become convinced the opposite way from MAGA that these bases only serve American interests which is certainly not the case. Likewise the bases also don't only serve the interest of others, they allow us to have more flexibility in our objectives and responses to issues that we see.

[protocolture]

>we let you be here

Read

"Our government is so thoroughly rooted the US can just build whatever it pleases on our soil"

>these bases only serve American interests

Pine Gap does SFA for us. I don't think we have a need to let the US communicate with their subs through the WA antenna.

Like absolute best case we have painted a big "Nuke Here" target on the country, because we are actively a part of their nuclear communication protocols. Not to mention, this is a fact that our government intentionally hid from us for like a decade, when Pine gap was at its most contentious.

Can you quantify any benefit we have received, there's only been a single military invitation and they bailed on it.

[fastasucan]

Its equally misleading to pretend like the bases have just a couple small benefits for the US. Come on, please. You dont believe it either. Ah yes, the post world war doctrine has been so that the us can have more flexibility. Sure thing. What a waste it has been for European Nations to have sacrificed lives for Americas wars the last decades.

[ericmay]

I agree with you, it is misleading. But there are two sides who are both being misleading - that's all I'm calling out here.

> What a waste it has been for European Nations to have sacrificed lives for Americas wars the last decades.

I personally don't support any comment suggesting that Europe hasn't at times been there for us in these conflicts or that their sacrifices weren't meaningful. But that's only part of the equation. We're in a different world from where we were in 2001 and things change and so you can't just hang your hat on this one thing, else we (Americans) get to hang our hat on any time period we want to as well where Americans sacrificed for Europe.

The whole "we did this then" is driving a lot of folks into lunacy, but there does seem to be material differences and that is concerning if you believe in these alliance systems which I generally do.

You have folks on this website who would tell you the US is actively working with Russia against Ukraine, and then in the same breath defend Iran from the US blowing up drone factories that Iran is using to manufacture drones for Russia to use to go murder Ukrainians! Kind of hard to have a conversation or an alliance if a population is being convinced of absolutely crazy things like this.

[dinkumthinkum]

Their grace? Who powers NATO? People need to realize that just because you don’t like something like America, it doesn’t mean beliefs that are divorced from reality about it are true.

[mo7061]

The uk, what the USA refers to as the unsinkable aircraft carrier