[jacquesm]

Both China and the USA have made many moves that benefit Putin. I would say neither party is a friend of Ukraine. China plays its own long games and the USA is being run by madmen. Why do I have to prefer one over the other? I don't like the way either is behaving on the world stage, and each for different reasons.

[pedroma]

>Why do I have to prefer one over the other? I don't like the way either is behaving on the world stage, and each for different reasons.

This is the perfect encapsulation of what I mean in my original response to you. This IS the popular European sentiment. And this is what is off-putting to many Americans. The weight of China and the US is not even worth preference, despite the US having contributed positively to the Ukrainian conflict and European defense. We are not even WORTHY of being placed above China, we're either just as bad or worse is the typical response I see.

[jacquesm]

You seem to be completely out of touch with the way the USA has been behaving towards the EU as of late, maybe get with the times and then report back.

Last I checked China hasn't threatened to take over either Canada or Greenland, has not started any major wars for which they expect the EU to pay for cleaning up their mess, has reasonably sane leadership and on top of that has been a fairly trustworthy business partner that does not engage in whim driven economic warfare. They also have a bunch of very dark sides that I am going to assume we are all familiar with.

I really wonder why you think that the USA should be given a free pass for what it has done in the last decade.

And that's before we get into human rights issues and other 'details'. Comparing yourself to China is not the flex you think it is.

Your bio says that "Farming negative karma is not trolling when you're expressing your honest views." and that's all fine, you have a right to your honest views but if they're indistinguishable from trolling to the point that you feel you need to pre-empt that classification then maybe HN is not the place for you?

[SideburnsOfDoom]

I think that one of the reasons for this "popular European sentiment" is the purely emotional one - it's emotionally more affecting when someone who was a close friend starts behaving badly towards you, than when someone who was a colleague with no close relationship remains thus.

The the popular European sentiment is understandable and IMHO correct though. Saying "it's off-putting" is no in way a coherent argument that it's wrong.

[jacquesm]

Indeed, it is breaking trust.

[watwut]

Europe has oil crisis right now because of an illegal war USA started, not because of China. Also, China did not locked accounts of international court justices, it was USA.

One of these two countries is an unpredictable threat and danger right now. The other is predictable threat in the future.

[u8080]

>illegal war

LOL

[watwut]

Yes, international law exists and this war is illegal. Simple as that.

[u8080]

EU is so high on bureaucracy they unironically believe their "international" facade organizations legitimate mass killings.

[SideburnsOfDoom]

> This IS the popular European sentiment. And this is what is off-putting to many Americans.

You're not saying that it's wrong though. Just that you don't like it. So what, that means nothing. It's not wrong. Rejecting reality because it's "off-putting" will not help you.

[pedroma]

The reply chain got too long so I will respond here.

>You seem to be completely out of touch with the way the USA has been behaving towards the EU as of late, maybe get with the times and then report back. Last I checked China hasn't threatened to take over either Canada or Greenland, has not started any major wars for which they expect the EU to pay for cleaning up their mess, has reasonably sane leadership and on top of that has been a fairly trustworthy business partner that does not engage in whim driven economic warfare. They also have a bunch of very dark sides that I am going to assume we are all familiar with.

I'm aware of everything you've said. What I've noticed is Europeans just like to bash on the US given any reason. My original point is (proven by the exact quote of your words) that this type of European sentiment is accelerating a two-sided voluntary parting. Nothing much more than that. I am not defending the US's actions.

>Comparing yourself to China is not the flex you think it is.

Once again you are proving my point. Europeans are typically not willing to place the US above China. Any attempt to get them to do so will provoke this type of response.

>Your bio says that "Farming negative karma is not trolling when you're expressing your honest views." and that's all fine, you have a right to your honest views but if they're indistinguishable from trolling to the point that you feel you need to pre-empt that classification then maybe HN is not the place for you?

Calling me a troll is just an attack on me and not my argument. That's ok though, no offense taken. The bio is provocation for people who dig into people's profiles. I don't like to do that. I just take the person's posts as is.

[jacquesm]

> Europeans are typically not willing to place the US above China.

This is not a scalar, it is a multi-dimensional array with tons of values that all individually can be ranked. One some of these the USA is better than China on others it is definitely not. You may want to collapse that all to a single 'but we're better' picture but that is just not how the world works.

> The bio is provocation for people who dig into people's profiles. I don't like to do that. I just take the person's posts as is.

And that's not true either because you clearly checked my account upthread to link it to Europe.

[pedroma]

>This is not a scalar, it is a multi-dimensional array with tons of values that all individually can be ranked. One some of these the USA is better than China on others it is definitely not. You may want to collapse that all to a single 'but we're better' picture but that is just not how the world works.

This is correct... and like I said the common European sentiment. I think we've exhausted this dialogue. We're restating the same things in more words.

>And that's not true either because you clearly checked my account upthread to link it to Europe.

Your post I originally responded to says "Should have worn a suit." and also mentions Europe and Ukraine. That's basically the entire context of our back and forth. If you have many other posts about the US and Europe's relationship... well I have no knowledge of those posts.

[ImPostingOnHN]

> This is correct... and like I said the common European sentiment

It's actually the common *global* "sentiment", in that it is the natural conclusion of any rational actor regardless of location, and also in that most of the world feels this way.

Europe has nothing to do with it – all the countries being slighted by the USA, including non-European ones, are coming to grips with the same conclusion: the USA can no longer be relied upon*.

* – except when israel asks

[pedroma]

Let's not extend this beyond the European opinion, especially since it's obvious that East Asia does not share the same point of view. East Asia and Europe have very different threats that shape their opinion of the US fundamentally. Europe does not have China breathing down their neck, and with Russia bogged down they have even less to worry about. Europe can freely reject the US, which is what this chain of comments is about, the popular European sentiment. In contrast, if there's anti-US sentiment in Taiwan, it would be in a minority and publicly disagreed with as their nation's existence hinges on positive US sentiment. To a lesser degree, the same thing in other East Asian countries.

[ImPostingOnHN]

> Let's not extend this beyond the European opinion

Too late! You already did!

> it's obvious that East Asia does not share the same point of view

It's quite obvious that East Asia, and any other regions containing a country being slighted by the US, does share that point of view: that the US can no longer be relied upon. Countries around the world are diversifying their investments of time, effort, and favor, away from the USA.

This clearly surprises you. It is indeed shocking: that's how far the USA has fallen, *globally*, in only a year or so.

> In contrast, if there's anti-US sentiment in Taiwan

Nobody said anything about "anti-US". We're simply talking about trusting that a country can be relied upon [0]. After seeing USA's behavior over the last year, Taiwan is understandably increasingly concerned that the US cannot be relied upon to defend against a Chinese invasion.

And they're right! Based on the track record of the USA's ruler, they can expect:

1. To be coerced into falsifying information to help the ruler's political campaign, and/or

2. To be told to pay for the help (possibly by allowing the USA to annex some territory), making it not help, but a basic transaction, and/or

3. To be told they would be helped, but then left high and dry when the time comes to help, and/or

4. For the USA to themselves start a war between China and Taiwan, to distract from media coverage of said ruler's involvement with a human-trafficking/child-sex ring.

All of these things have already been done by the ruler. We can reasonably expect him to do them again.

> which is what this chain of comments is about, the popular European sentiment

Again, it's the common *global* sentiment. You are the only one seeming to claim it is limited to Europeans, which is an incorrect claim. Beyond that, are you simply observing that the common European sentiment over the last year (negative) reflects the common global sentiment over the last year (negative), or was there a deeper point?

0 –https://www.gmfus.org/news/taiwans-growing-distrust-united-s...

[ImPostingOnHN]

> Europeans are typically not willing to place the US above China.

You keep saying this as if it's not a totally reasonable position given the behavior of the USA towards others over the past year or so.

[pedroma]

The other poster mentioned the opinions about the US and China being multi-faceted, I like to see it with vectors. My question is, given all the vectors, can you provide an average magnitude and average direction of the vector? If the average vector points left the opinion favors China, if it points right the opinion favors the US.

The American point of view is, yes we did make a claim towards Greenland which is European territory, but we also helped with European security. These are two separate vectors, right? Now average them. And plot China's vectors. I imagine the vectors China produces is much lower in magnitude, and as such provokes a lower emotional response in terms of opinions.

[ImPostingOnHN]

> My question is, given all the vectors, can you provide an average magnitude and average direction of the vector?

It's an interesting question! Since you seem to have your finger on the pulse of Europeans, I'll toss it back your way to answer (with data, of course).

> yes we did make a claim towards Greenland which is European territory, but we also helped with European security.

"Yes, we did threaten to invade a sovereign European country for territorial conquest, but we also did good things in the past" is really weak. How has the US helped Europe's security over the last year?

Most of the work in that direction over several decades is being intentionally destroyed as of late by the USA's ruler as a signature policy position of his. We all understand that past performance is not a guarantee of future results, right? What happened recently outweighs what happened previously.