[halflife]

> Palestinians have long lived under one of the most extensively documented surveillance regimes in the world. The deployment of facial recognition systems, predictive analytics, and device monitoring technologies in the occupied Palestinian territories are widely documented by human-rights organizations and digital researchers.

At the same time Israel has world renowned success of thwarting terrorist plots, and best in class intelligence shared with other countries (like the many, many, terrorist attacks stopped in European capitals thanks to Israeli intelligence).

You can choose either surveillance, or terrorism.

[lkey]

When you choose build an apartheid, you choose surveillance, because how else would you enforce a top to bottom racial order on the populace?

When you end apartheid, you end 'terrorism' (legal and ethical resistance against having your life, land, and water stolen). History shows this to be possible, preferable, and moral.

[yes_really]

> When you end apartheid, you end 'terrorism'

Your theory has really not been borne out by reality.

Somehow Hamas committed October 7th and has fired tens of thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israel since Gaza was given in its entirety to the arabs.

Somehow Iran has been financing and arming multiple terrorist groups even though it obviously is its own country far away from Israel.

Somehow Hezbollah has fired tens of thousands of rockets at civilians as well.

Somehow the Houthis have been committing terrorism sa well and their flag is literally "God is great, Death to America, Death to Israel".

Yeah, I'm sure if Israel just stopped all the security measures on the West Bank, all terrorism would stop!

[lkey]

If you could press a button and kill every man, woman, and child in Gaza, would you press that button?

If you could execute every Yemeni, Iranian, Lebanese and Syrian tomorrow, gifting you a 'clean', and 'pure' world for Greater Israel to flourish for 1000 years, would you do it?

If your answer is yes. Then anything I say about the right of the invaded and occupied to resist occupation under international law will land on deaf ears.

[throw46974228]

This is a common bit of hate propaganda.

Do yourself a favor; go on to google maps and zoom out until you can see all these countries. Isreal is a tiny sliver on that scale and has not expanded in the last 50 years.

What has happened, is that the large Jewish populations of Yemen, Syria, and Lebanon have gone to 0. So you got yourself a large “clean” and “pure” area. But it’s that remaining sliver that you are obsessed with trying to wipe out.

[lkey]

Is your argument that because these territorial incursions have not been successful to the degree the the Israeli government desired, that those incursions are unacceptable to resist?

> Isreal[sic] is a tiny sliver on that scale and has not expanded in the last 50 years.

My sibling in [your preferred Deity], you cannot spell Israel?? What are we doing?

Do you acknowledge that expanding militarily is always illegal, or not? You can't make an argument like "Israel is just a smol bean that needs lebensraum" and make it sound normal in 2026.

I want middle-aged Jewish people that have 'purchased' stolen land in the West Bank to move back home to the States and be my neighbors again! That isn't 'wiping them out', quite the contrary!

Forestalling that, I want integration and democracy and an accounting of what was stolen, along with reparations. I want the children of that land to grow up and not understand why their parents were in conflict. To barely comprehend how it could have been so bad.

This is what I want for the United States as well. An accounting and reparations for both the decedents of the enslaved and those we committed genocide against, within our borders and without. We never completed reconstruction and we are all poorer for it.

This is why the current administration is tearing down monuments that remember our past, they'd rather live in a muscular fantasy of restoration forgotten 'white' greatness than acknowledge what we owe to each other. That we must find solidarity and love in shared humanity to resist the forces that divide us.

[throw46974228]

They have not expanded in 50 years because they have no desire to expand. It’s a scary bedtime story told to kids in certain cultures.

Do you also think that non-whites should leave Europe? Do you think that South Americans should be deported from North America. You think that lands belongs to races?

Your siblings in ideology are actively working to make Jews in America and around the world feel hated so that they are motivated to migrate to Isreal.

It’s the antisemitism of “anti-Zionists” that is boosting Zionism.

[yes_really]

> Then anything I say about the right of the invaded and occupied to resist occupation under international law will land on deaf ears.

There is absolutely no part of international law that allows terrorism from Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, or Houthis to "resist occupation".

And it is really quite worrisome how you are openly supporting terrorism.

[gzread]

While I don't agree with terrorism, this is incorrect. International law is quite deliberate in allowing the victims of aggression to do almost anything against the aggressors to get control of their land back, including terrorism. Those who wrote the law hoped this would be a sufficient deterrent against invasions.

[dlubarov]

> victims of aggression

There is no such notion in IHL. IHL has a notion of self-defense, but that's only relevant to jus ad bellum. Once a conflict exists, there are no carveouts whatsoever for those who claim self-defense, or consider themselves victims, or claim that the other side violated international laws. Customary IHL doesn't care about such claims.

[yes_really]

And Israel is an aggressor who is occupying the land of Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, and the Houthis? Are you even reading what you write?

[yes_really]

Also love the refusal to even agree that words have meaning. You put scare quotes around 'terrorism'. Are you saying that Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and a series of small terrorist groups, and a series of individuals did not commit terrorists attacks in Israel?

Terrorism is "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." - are you saying exploding bombs, knife attacks, and firing rockets indiscriminately against civilians is not terrorism?

[C6JEsQeQa5fCjE]

> Terrorism is "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

Now take a long look in the mirror.

[yes_really]

Israel performs precise attacks on valid military targets and with multiple measures to reduce the number of collateral damage to civilians. You are trying to equate this with terrorist attacks literally targeting civilians.

[C6JEsQeQa5fCjE]

The carnage was too documented for too long of a period of time for those words of yours to warrant a serious response. I know that the only way to possibly attempt to repair your image is to relentlessly repeat the bullet points over and over again and hope that the new generations hear more of your words and less of actual documented reporting, but there is no reason for the rest of us to dignify such attempts of yours with a serious discussion about what are now established facts. While you're staring at that mirror, try to find a semblance of a soul somewhere deep if any still exists there. Collectively.

[yes_really]

If the "carnage" was so well "documented", then it'll be quite easy for you to provide proof. Do you have any proof at all that Israel engages in systematic *terrorism* (i.e. "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims")?

Again, I'm not talking about collateral casualties in valid military strikes. I'm talking about sustained, deliberate attacks against civilians with the objective of killing as many civilians as possible. Do you have any evidence at all that Israel did this?

[Pay08]

This "apartheid" claim never made sense to me. Are people completely ignorant to South African history? Israeli Palestinians are equal citizens. Black people in South Africa couldn't own property, couldn't vote, and often couldn't even live in the same building as white people.

[direwolf20]

IIRC Israel maintains apartheid by insisting the oppressed class are not their citizens. They call them Palestinians, and keep them in a small area called Gaza, rather than the South African approach of making them South Africans with lesser rights and the ability to access the whole country.

[throw46974228]

There are two million Arabs in Israel with full citizenship and equal rights. They are in the parliament, in the Supreme Court, in the IDF, in all professions, and in 2022 were in the government coalition.

The Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank are not citizens of Israel, and it would be against international law for Israel to give them citizenship.

[halflife]

So you want Israel to annex Gaza?

[mupuff1234]

History has also shown that whenever Jews are in a minority of the population something bad tends to a happen to them.

So a two state solution makes much more sense.

[lkey]

I disagree. Limiting your understanding of 'can people coexist' down to purely ethnic terms is colonial apartheid thinking.

"History has also shown that whenever Mizrahi Jews are a minority relative to Ashkenazi Jews something bad tends to a happen to them"

What now mupuff? Is it because they tainted by their Arab blood?

I could do this all day with random minorities, but it's not a refutation of my argument.

'Single supreme race' states are evil. The Antebellum South was one of the most evil places ever to exist and functioned on the exact same terms. There was a civil war, and we settled on a one state solution. The only mistake was not fully purging the slavers from positions of power and stopping reconstruction.

Racial/Ethnic/Religious caste systems are a race to the bottom. They are a suicidal purity cult.

I should note that you are factually wrong. Jews have very rarely been an ethnic majority, yet many cultures have managed to not genocide them throughout history. This includes middle eastern countries prior to the Nakba. Don't project out the utterly imperial eurocentric 'pograms are inevitiable' and 'arabs are all that same, and are savages' viewpoint out onto every civilizations.

European empires created or exacerbated divisions in peaceful populations as a means of colonial control. This is well documented and intentional. Zionism as a project is very very British, they wrote their plans down! Same as they did in South Africa. Same as they did in Ireland.

[halflife]

So Jews should just accept the ruler de jour! If he likes Jews everything’s honky dory, if he doesn’t, better luck with the next ruler! Just like the last 2000 years of exile, sometime it was nice for Jews, sometime it was pogroms. Such is life you say.

So easy for you when you’re not the one that billions of people around the world are taught to hate.

[lkey]

""" So [Black people in America] should just accept the [president] de jour! If he likes [Black people] everything’s honky dory, if he doesn’t, better luck with the next [president]! Just like the last 400 years of [chattel slavery, convict leasing, apartheid, and child incarceration], sometime it was nice for [Black people], sometime it was [lynchings].

Such is life you say. So easy for you when you’re not the one that billions of people around the world are taught to hate [Black people, sexual minorities, brown immigrants, Muslims, Jews, etc...]. """

I'm saying that apartheid is always wrong and I will always stand against it. It is not 'such is life' except in the particular sense that it is the obligation of all free peoples to stand against these moral atrocities where ever they appear, and they appear in every age.

It does not matter to me one whit the particulars of the race or caste of the people enacting apartheid and genocide and no amount of special pleading will change my mind.

[halflife]

what you think matters not in the real world. Jews are hated, and persecuted. In the past and present. The only place where Jews feel safe to be Jewish is Israel.

[Pay08]

You almost got the irony...

[clydethefrog]

There has been recent academic research (+ book) about how it's the opposite - Israel relied on foreign intelligence (Club de Berne) for it's most famous operations.

[1] https://academic.oup.com/ehr/article/140/604-605/777/8140798

[2] https://www.cambridge.org/us/universitypress/subjects/histor...

[hackable_sand]

You didn't even try with this one

[expedition32]

You can choose a secular government with equal rights and opportunities for all or found a theocracy.

[idop]

That government, and its country, will be destroyed in three days.