[WhompingWindows]

You're not alone, Kraig911. It's very hard to be a parent in modern society. My wife and I's friends have basically vanished from our lives, they have zero initiative or interest in coming over to see the kids or help in any way. They say they do, but they rely on us to take the initiative and make social things happen. After dozens of rejections or silence from dozens of them, it's rejection fatigue with the friends...unless they also have kids, in which case we play DnD together when the kids go to bed.

Going out to eat? Going on vacations? Sleeping? Your own health? Your finances? Say goodbye to all of that for 5+ years if you have kids, even more if you have a special needs child.

And despite all that, we love them and we want to have them, and probably the vast majority would do so again. And we will have our children to keep us young-at-heart, learning, active, and to help us in old age. Many of our child-free friends are going to go through a lot of loneliness when they're old, while we'll have the vibrancy of a family life.

[crystal_revenge]

> Many of our child-free friends are going to go through a lot of loneliness when they're old

I've seen this "kids are insurance against loneliness" logic repeated often, but I don't believe this bares out in reality. I personally know plenty of child-free older couples who remain quite happy and social. I also know plenty of parents whose kids don't speak to them anymore or whose children have lives on the other side of the country/world. Anecdotally the loneliest older people I know are ones who have put it upon their children to keep themselves from loneliness.

> And despite all that, we love them and we want to have them

As a parent I always find it funny that we need to add this to every statement of frustration of family life (I'm not critiquing you, I also say this every time I mention any frustration about parenting). It is worth recognizing that saying the contrary is fundamentally taboo. I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted"

[iugtmkbdfil834]

<< I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted"

You can absolutely think it as long as it stops there. There is a reason. At that point in the game, your needs and wants are supposed to be subordinate to those of the kids' long term survival. I could maybe understand this sentiment, oh 50 years ago, when you maybe could plausibly claim you had no idea that child rearing is not exactly easy, but unless a person is almost completely detached from society, it is near impossible to miss the "pregnancy will ruin your life" propaganda.

Consequences. They exist. Some are life altering and expected to last a long time.

[decafninja]

Some of my friends and family who had kids at a young(er) age - and by that, I mean late twenties or early thirties - seemed totally oblivious to the hardships of parenthood.

You’d think by your thirties you’d do some basic research. Most people just have kids because it’s just “what your supposed to do” and don’t give much thought beyond that.

I don’t know what they thought to themselves, but outwardly they projected rainbows and unicorns until reality eventually hit them.

[jonmb]

> You’d think by your thirties you’d do some basic research.

I've often had thoughts like this, but had to just accept that people often don't do basic research. For another example, consider how many people work full-time (160+ hours per month) to make money, but have never bothered to take even a 2-hour course on how to manage it well. They spend all that time making money but no time on how to use it wisely. And then they make obvious mistakes. Unnecessary debt, lack of investments, complain that they never learned this stuff in school, etc. Not trying to sound judgmental, but I always found that surprising.

[lucyjojo]

in my case i made money to not have to think about it, the whole managing money thing was/is repulsive to me.

i only started learning about that when i had kids, so i have something to leave them when i die.

[Barrin92]

>You can absolutely think it as long as it stops there.

If that's the attitude it renders virtually every discussion about the topic moot and the people in question better stop trying to give life advice to anyone else.

My wife and I don't want kids and we've heard our fair share of (unsolicited) opinions on the topic from people who clearly weren't always happy. I've only ever known one woman I worked with, who was a brilliant scientist, tell me straight up she regrets having children and wished she could have focused on her research.

If that's not something you can honestly say without being berated then clearly the 'propaganda' still works mostly in one direction.

[CAPSLOCKSSTUCK]

I agree with you but I don't really see what the alternative is. If you openly go around stating that you regret having children, what are people supposed to say? It's better to keep those thoughts to yourself because there, quite frankly, is nothing helpful anyone could say even if they wanted to. Not to mention that it would be unfair to the kids if they got the feeling that you regret having them.

[KellyCriterion]

This!

Unfortunately, my soul brought me into that bucket :-( I can speak about it with other (men) friends without children, and to some women without children. But if you ever say that you didnt want children when others with children are around, they see you as an alien.

Esp it gets hard if you are single (what happenend to me now) and you meet new women and tell them that the only reason for the last breakup was that I couldnt bear the stress with out children.

I knew from the beginning of my life on, that it will totally crush me if this happens - coming from a "not supportive family" makes it really hard to >actually want children<, esp. if the same stories now repeat :-(

[kelipso]

What even is this? People will say what they will say when they listen to it. It’s not like you are complaining to the kids.

[crystal_revenge]

This is a hilariously narrow view of family life.

Life is a lot more complicated and there's essentially limitless possibility between living a life you feel is solely about "paying consequences" or "completely abandoning all responsibility" (which, btw, is still an option. Not great, but neither is the former)

But I do appreciate you providing an object lesson in just how taboo it is to even entertain the thought publicly!

[iugtmkbdfil834]

You can entertain it. You just did. But don't expect standing ovation is my very subtle point.

<< This is a hilariously narrow view of family life.

Quite the contrary, it allows for a very broad range of outcomes, because it deals with reality of the human condition.

<< which, btw, is still an option. Not great, but neither is the former

Everything always is. Why, tomorrow I could quit my job and start a bar in Hawaii. As arguments go, this one was pretty weak.

<< Life is a lot more complicated and there's essentially limitless possibility between

Why am I getting this feeling that you completely misread what I wrote.

[rc5150]

"But don't expect standing ovation is my very subtle point."

that's the exact reasoning why parents who complain about how hard it is to be a parent get no sympathy from you. You blew a load in somebody (or had a load blown into you) and another human popped out. That's a choice you made for yourself, nobody forced you to, and there is a big giant swath of people out there who couldn't care less.

[iugtmkbdfil834]

I sense there is some confusion, but I can't pin point where it is coming from. Is it possible you are not replying the person you thought you were?

[mothballed]

>I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted"

Because there's no point in thinking about it. Your wife will ask if you want to leave, your children will hate you, and society will hate you, it will make you feel depressed, and meanwhile it won't accomplish anything. It's a dialogue only for yourself, once you acknowledge that, it becomes far less challenging to deal with and you can move forward with dealing with challenges in solvable ways.

[fusslo]

My mothers' friends have to fund vacations for their adult children and grand children in order to spend time with them. They wont let her stay at their home.

My mother was giddy when my father died; so I have strong boundaries in our relationship.

My brother moved to colorado after the service and never returned.

I'm not convinced having children is the answer alone. (I say as a childless 35yo)

[lostlogin]

> They wont let her stay at their home.

There are many reasons this could be the case. The internet (and Reddit in particular) is abound with AITA type discussions around boundaries within families.

[rootusrootus]

Being a parent is orthogonal to being someone people want to spend time with. Unless I knew for sure I was not in the latter group, I wouldn’t use it as a justification for not having kids.

[tuesdaynight]

About your first point, I understand why it happens, but I get frustrated at these debates nowadays. Both sides cannot talk about their experiences without having to add something that invalidates the other side choice. They cannot fathom that the other side may prefer the disadvantages of their choice instead of the disadvantages of yours. Maybe it's the human condition to try to point out how the other side will regret their choices to validate our life decisions

[jonmb]

Well said. I appreciate people on both sides that can simply acknowledge having kids is great for some people, and not having them is great for others, and the world is big enough for all of us.

[wisemang]

Indeed. There was a CBC radio episode last year that had parents discussing regrets. It felt weird to hear people saying these things out loud.

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/9.6661746

[jujube3]

Being able to hook up with random strangers on apps might be fun in your 20s and 30s. When you're old and wrinkly, it's not going to be the same. I hate to say it, but this is especially true for women entering their twilight years. A lot of childless people in our generation are headed to a very sad and lonely future.

COVID was exceptionally hard on these people. A lot of the weirdness of the COVID years was just people going crazy in isolation. Trading random stocks, or ordering crazy nonsense off of Amazon. Being alone is literally psychological abuse and a lot of them were subjected to it for months at a time.

[S_Bear]

And wife and I are both old and wrinkly and happily child free. Childfree people aren't just hedonists.

[koakuma-chan]

So why do you have children? Can't synthesize a reason?

[lucyjojo]

have kids because i wanted to.

and life is beautiful.

[HelloMcFly]

> My wife and I's friends have basically vanished from our lives, they have zero initiative or interest in coming over to see the kids or help in any way

I completely believe that’s been your experience, but want to highlight that his is a difficult asymmetry in these friendships. I in no way mean to imply that the below is the experience your friends had with you, just that the challenges are not one-way.

In my own circle, my wife and I have often felt like it was our friends with kids who vanished. We knew they were busy, we kept extending invites or asking for time. Things often didn't work especially as new parents are figuring their lives out, things are changing all the time, etc. We'd meet up here and there, but it was - necessarily - always on their terms. And so of course, our outreach tapered down incrementally but consistently.

But I do wonder: do they feel we detached from them, or do they have any inkling that we feel they detached from us? We've discussed it with one couple who we were always closer to, but it doesn't feel an appropriate topic to resurface uninvited at any given moment.

[kraig911]

It's simply hard to plan. Before kids I'd typically meet up with friend around 8 or so maybe 9. Now bedtime rules my evenings. When my kids are asleep I'm exhausted. Most of my friends evenings are just starting at that time! (lol) and I completely understand. The other thing is I can't go out and get drunk or party because being hung over with a 3 year old pissing the bed after they crawl in to sleep/cuddle with you - nothing better/worse.

It's simply hard to relate. I have some very good friends who we've stayed in touch. I'm forever grateful for them. But when you're out and about and you meet a random person and try to strike up a friendship say at a conference. The second I mention I'm a dad I feel I'm relegated to the back of the bus.

[fleeting900]

Speaking from the other side, but having been on your side for most of my 20s and 30s and felt exactly how you do, they probably do feel you detached from them.

Their lives fundamentally changed to the extent that as you say, any gathering necessarily must be on terms that allow them to parent.

And the level of last-minute cancellations and apologies increase.

And on top of that, they’re just not prioritising reaching out to you. Mainly because parenting occupies 25 hours of most days and they’re exhausted, but they’re also probably assuming that any activity in reach for them, like simply getting coffee at a playground while they try to make sure their kid doesn’t eat too much sand, is not your idea of a fun time.

So your outreach tapered down in response, but that is ultimately your choice.

The alternative requires you to quite selflessly keep up the outreach and be OK with a lower hit rate, and lean into the fact that you have far, far greater flexibility to meet on their terms than they do to meet on yours.

Not doing that is not an unreasonable choice, but they probably miss you and want you to be part of their kids lives.

Anyway, thanks for sharing this point of view. It’s a hard situation.

[HelloMcFly]

I think it's a fair response, and I can appreciate the truth in one's own life that leads you to write it. But this situation is a complex dynamic, no two situations are precisely the same either factually or subjectively. The same couple with a new child may stay close to one, drift away from another for totally different reasons that may not have one thing to do with intention or effort.

At any rate, I'm never too proud to reach out to old friends even if the time between attempts increases. Relationships may change again!

[pino83]

> You're not alone, Kraig911. It's very hard to be a parent in modern society. My wife and I's friends have basically vanished from our lives, they have zero initiative or interest in coming over to see the kids or help in any way.

Similar to what I wrote in the other reply: How far went _your_ initiative to stay in actual contact with them, in a way it's not a boring duty call, but something _actually_ nice?

If I have friends with children, sure I'm also interested in them. But if it turns out that these friends have no desire to spend time with _me_ anymore - without any kids involved - and they mostly expect from me that I constantly want to see the kids and "help in any way", well, where do I profit from that friendship?? It often gets quite asymmetrical and boring.

[tasuki]

> But if it turns out that these friends have no desire to spend time with _me_ anymore - without any kids involved

See the problem is the kids. You can't quite make them go away that easily. My guess would be your friends would love to spend some time with you but can't, because logistics.

> where do I profit from that friendship?? It often gets quite asymmetrical and boring.

Friendships are not for profit. If you want profit, start a business.

[pino83]

> See the problem is the kids. You can't quite make them go away that easily.

You can't, sure. You shouldn't at least. But what does it mean to me? It leads to the fact that the friendship is pointless. So why should I take a lot of initiative, when I don't get anything back anymore? For a reason that they've actively decided for (typically), btw.

> Friendships are not for profit. If you want profit, start a business.

I'm not talking about commercial/monetary/material profits. I'm talking about profits in terms of social lives. If my wording is unfortunate, I hope that it's still clear what I mean. One important (not the only one) currency in that regard is: Timeslots in the calendar.

PS: If the other side shows at least some remote awareness of the situation and indicates a little goodwill, it's already a different thing. In my personal experience, even that isn't common, though.

[tuesdaynight]

I understand why they do it, but I cannot ignore that you lose the incentive of visiting your friends and their kids when they always take that visit as a way to treat you like a babysitter. Yes, I accept sometimes looking at your kid while you take a nap, just don't make that the usual experience for years on end, though. I'm lucky, as my friends always understood when I pointed that out to them, but I'm aware that this may not be the common reaction.

[pino83]

Admittedly, I don't know that particular case from practical experience, but yeah, well, that sounds very symbolic for what I meant.

[S_Bear]

I cut my parents out of my life as soon as I was able. Depending on the 'vibrancy of family life' when you're old is often a bad gamble.

[echelon]

It's not that being a parent is harder - it's actually easier (excluding the post-WWII American boom years which were a fluke).

It's that the floor of being single has risen to stratospheric highs.

Being single used to be: boring (no internet, tv, constant dopamine drip. Having kids was an escape from mundane boredom.)

Being single used to be: lonely (now we have dating and hookup apps, online games, tons of in-person events - cities are filled with concerts and music festivals, you name it, more Michelin Star restaurants than anyone could visit, etc. etc.)

Being a woman used to be: limited choice (now we fortunately have tons of options for women - careers, etc. They can enjoy the same freedoms, fun, and personal investment as men.)

Not to mention that parents have all kinds of new social stigmas.

Having children used to be: free labor, send them off to do whatever (now you'd be accused of child abuse)

Basically, the problem is single life is too good now. We have smartphones, internet, and the economy revolves around the single experience.

The minute you have kids, you lose access to the exciting single life that the modern society has built itself around and catered itself to.

Society glorifies single life, and the signalling is so strong you know you'll lose it if you have kids. It's not like you have time anyway with the doomscrolling and dopamine addiction.

[patrickk]

> Being a woman used to be: limited choice (now we fortunately have tons of options for women - careers, etc. They can enjoy the same freedoms, fun, and personal investment as men.)

This is the real reason that birth rates are dropping. Women’s prime childbearing years are spent working in an office (usually through economic necessity), and the decision to have kids becomes “oh we’ll get to that later”. Once the switch flipped to DINKY (double income, no kids) being the norm, house prices inflated and that’s where you have to be as a couple to keep up.

[estearum]

> It's not that being a parent is harder - it's actually easier (excluding the post-WWII American boom years which were a fluke).

Why would it be easier today?

You used to just open your door and go let your kids run around and hope they're back before dinner. Absolutely nothing like today's ultracompetitive, ultra-regimented world.

[iugtmkbdfil834]

This. I know me and all my peers roamed the neighborhood and my wife's life was not that different despite being born on different continents. Doing the same now risks a visit from state child neglect referral, which is enough to give most a pause. Parents seem to get all the risk and less benefits, while getting the stink eye when kid is not behaving properly.

In short, I am entirely confused on what would be easier today. If anything, things have gotten exponentially worse.. if you care enough to do it right.

[myko]

> You used to just open your door and go let your kids run around and hope they're back before dinner.

Still works this way in my suburban Ohio world

> today's ultracompetitive, ultra-regimented world.

though yes I see this in the childhood sport arena, club teams, traveling teams, etc.

[mothballed]

>Still works this way in my suburban Ohio world

I don't mean this in a derogatory fashion... but to be blunt I've only seen this in black and impoverished neighborhoods. There needs to be enough working single moms releasing their kid out of necessity that the Karens can't snitch on everyone and the police/CPS fatigue of fielding the calls after investigating and not finding anyone they can force into keeping the kids inside.

[echelon]

Kids aren't dying in childbirth, for one.

[estearum]

Well sure, that doesn't really make parenting itself easier/harder.

[NoLinkToMe]

Agreed. By just about every measure, we're much better off than the past, yet have fewer kids. Statistics have supported this correlation (richer -> fewer kids) for a century, across the board around the worldwide, yet people often still get the causality exactly backwards: it's too expensive to have kids.

Real median incomes have risen, decade after decade.

And because of this, consumption in key categories has improved. For example:

Housing floor space per person, same trend.

Life expectancy, same trend.

Leisure has increased.

Tourism has increased.

Yet the common discussion is that it is unaffordable or impossible to have kids. It's backwards. My grandparents were dirt poor and each came from families with 8-10 people. I'm comparatively very rich and have no kids. The explanation that it's so unaffordable I think is mostly wrong. It's that not having kids for many people is a better deal than before.

The cost of kids isn't unaffordable per se, but rather opportunity cost is too high.

As an example I just came back from travelling the world for six months. I'm rich enough to do that. Which also means the opportunity cost is so great, that it's a lot to sacrifice to have kids. My grandparents had none of that opportunity cost precisely because they weren't rich.

[KellyCriterion]

> The cost of kids isn't unaffordable per se

Deopends on country and social support Id say?

In western EU countries, parental-costs are estimated to 180.000 - 200.000 EUR per head that parents will pay for the first 25 years.

[NoLinkToMe]

Will pay because these societies can afford it. If they had 10k they're not spending 200k, period.

That's the whole point in these affordability discussions.

Take homes, We often speak of homes being so expensive, $1m average in Silicon Valley or whatever. That's not because it's unaffordable, but precisely because for the people who bought these homes, they were able to afford $1m or whatever the number is. If people there could only afford $500k, they'd be 500k.

If it's 200k it's because that's what we can and believe should spend. And that's completely different from the past, when we could spend less, and decided we should spend less. My grandparents generation for example who had 5-10 kids certainly wasn't spending 1-2m on their children.

Fact is that median income has gone way up, while children per person went way down. We thus have more to spend per child, we can afford MORE, to spend more. And the fact that we do (evidenced by the 200k per child figure), is not evidence of unaffordability, to the contrary!

[worik]

> post-WWII American boom years which were a fluke

No fluke. A deliberate policy

[shipman05]

There's certainly some flukiness to being the only major country on the planet that hadn't been shelled and bombed to smithereens in the preceding decades. That's not the whole story, but it's certainly part of it.

[echelon]

We can't return to a place where America is the only manufacturing country in the world, where every other country is in ruins and rebuilding and taking loans from America. That was a very weird set of circumstances that gave America unprecedented tailwinds that no other country has ever had.