[crystal_revenge]

> Many of our child-free friends are going to go through a lot of loneliness when they're old

I've seen this "kids are insurance against loneliness" logic repeated often, but I don't believe this bares out in reality. I personally know plenty of child-free older couples who remain quite happy and social. I also know plenty of parents whose kids don't speak to them anymore or whose children have lives on the other side of the country/world. Anecdotally the loneliest older people I know are ones who have put it upon their children to keep themselves from loneliness.

> And despite all that, we love them and we want to have them

As a parent I always find it funny that we need to add this to every statement of frustration of family life (I'm not critiquing you, I also say this every time I mention any frustration about parenting). It is worth recognizing that saying the contrary is fundamentally taboo. I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted"

[iugtmkbdfil834]

<< I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted"

You can absolutely think it as long as it stops there. There is a reason. At that point in the game, your needs and wants are supposed to be subordinate to those of the kids' long term survival. I could maybe understand this sentiment, oh 50 years ago, when you maybe could plausibly claim you had no idea that child rearing is not exactly easy, but unless a person is almost completely detached from society, it is near impossible to miss the "pregnancy will ruin your life" propaganda.

Consequences. They exist. Some are life altering and expected to last a long time.

[decafninja]

Some of my friends and family who had kids at a young(er) age - and by that, I mean late twenties or early thirties - seemed totally oblivious to the hardships of parenthood.

You’d think by your thirties you’d do some basic research. Most people just have kids because it’s just “what your supposed to do” and don’t give much thought beyond that.

I don’t know what they thought to themselves, but outwardly they projected rainbows and unicorns until reality eventually hit them.

[jonmb]

> You’d think by your thirties you’d do some basic research.

I've often had thoughts like this, but had to just accept that people often don't do basic research. For another example, consider how many people work full-time (160+ hours per month) to make money, but have never bothered to take even a 2-hour course on how to manage it well. They spend all that time making money but no time on how to use it wisely. And then they make obvious mistakes. Unnecessary debt, lack of investments, complain that they never learned this stuff in school, etc. Not trying to sound judgmental, but I always found that surprising.

[lucyjojo]

in my case i made money to not have to think about it, the whole managing money thing was/is repulsive to me.

i only started learning about that when i had kids, so i have something to leave them when i die.

[Barrin92]

>You can absolutely think it as long as it stops there.

If that's the attitude it renders virtually every discussion about the topic moot and the people in question better stop trying to give life advice to anyone else.

My wife and I don't want kids and we've heard our fair share of (unsolicited) opinions on the topic from people who clearly weren't always happy. I've only ever known one woman I worked with, who was a brilliant scientist, tell me straight up she regrets having children and wished she could have focused on her research.

If that's not something you can honestly say without being berated then clearly the 'propaganda' still works mostly in one direction.

[CAPSLOCKSSTUCK]

I agree with you but I don't really see what the alternative is. If you openly go around stating that you regret having children, what are people supposed to say? It's better to keep those thoughts to yourself because there, quite frankly, is nothing helpful anyone could say even if they wanted to. Not to mention that it would be unfair to the kids if they got the feeling that you regret having them.

[KellyCriterion]

This!

Unfortunately, my soul brought me into that bucket :-( I can speak about it with other (men) friends without children, and to some women without children. But if you ever say that you didnt want children when others with children are around, they see you as an alien.

Esp it gets hard if you are single (what happenend to me now) and you meet new women and tell them that the only reason for the last breakup was that I couldnt bear the stress with out children.

I knew from the beginning of my life on, that it will totally crush me if this happens - coming from a "not supportive family" makes it really hard to >actually want children<, esp. if the same stories now repeat :-(

[kelipso]

What even is this? People will say what they will say when they listen to it. It’s not like you are complaining to the kids.

[crystal_revenge]

This is a hilariously narrow view of family life.

Life is a lot more complicated and there's essentially limitless possibility between living a life you feel is solely about "paying consequences" or "completely abandoning all responsibility" (which, btw, is still an option. Not great, but neither is the former)

But I do appreciate you providing an object lesson in just how taboo it is to even entertain the thought publicly!

[iugtmkbdfil834]

You can entertain it. You just did. But don't expect standing ovation is my very subtle point.

<< This is a hilariously narrow view of family life.

Quite the contrary, it allows for a very broad range of outcomes, because it deals with reality of the human condition.

<< which, btw, is still an option. Not great, but neither is the former

Everything always is. Why, tomorrow I could quit my job and start a bar in Hawaii. As arguments go, this one was pretty weak.

<< Life is a lot more complicated and there's essentially limitless possibility between

Why am I getting this feeling that you completely misread what I wrote.

[rc5150]

"But don't expect standing ovation is my very subtle point."

that's the exact reasoning why parents who complain about how hard it is to be a parent get no sympathy from you. You blew a load in somebody (or had a load blown into you) and another human popped out. That's a choice you made for yourself, nobody forced you to, and there is a big giant swath of people out there who couldn't care less.

[iugtmkbdfil834]

I sense there is some confusion, but I can't pin point where it is coming from. Is it possible you are not replying the person you thought you were?

[mothballed]

>I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted"

Because there's no point in thinking about it. Your wife will ask if you want to leave, your children will hate you, and society will hate you, it will make you feel depressed, and meanwhile it won't accomplish anything. It's a dialogue only for yourself, once you acknowledge that, it becomes far less challenging to deal with and you can move forward with dealing with challenges in solvable ways.

[fusslo]

My mothers' friends have to fund vacations for their adult children and grand children in order to spend time with them. They wont let her stay at their home.

My mother was giddy when my father died; so I have strong boundaries in our relationship.

My brother moved to colorado after the service and never returned.

I'm not convinced having children is the answer alone. (I say as a childless 35yo)

[lostlogin]

> They wont let her stay at their home.

There are many reasons this could be the case. The internet (and Reddit in particular) is abound with AITA type discussions around boundaries within families.

[rootusrootus]

Being a parent is orthogonal to being someone people want to spend time with. Unless I knew for sure I was not in the latter group, I wouldn’t use it as a justification for not having kids.

[tuesdaynight]

About your first point, I understand why it happens, but I get frustrated at these debates nowadays. Both sides cannot talk about their experiences without having to add something that invalidates the other side choice. They cannot fathom that the other side may prefer the disadvantages of their choice instead of the disadvantages of yours. Maybe it's the human condition to try to point out how the other side will regret their choices to validate our life decisions

[jonmb]

Well said. I appreciate people on both sides that can simply acknowledge having kids is great for some people, and not having them is great for others, and the world is big enough for all of us.

[wisemang]

Indeed. There was a CBC radio episode last year that had parents discussing regrets. It felt weird to hear people saying these things out loud.

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/9.6661746

[jujube3]

Being able to hook up with random strangers on apps might be fun in your 20s and 30s. When you're old and wrinkly, it's not going to be the same. I hate to say it, but this is especially true for women entering their twilight years. A lot of childless people in our generation are headed to a very sad and lonely future.

COVID was exceptionally hard on these people. A lot of the weirdness of the COVID years was just people going crazy in isolation. Trading random stocks, or ordering crazy nonsense off of Amazon. Being alone is literally psychological abuse and a lot of them were subjected to it for months at a time.

[S_Bear]

And wife and I are both old and wrinkly and happily child free. Childfree people aren't just hedonists.

[koakuma-chan]

So why do you have children? Can't synthesize a reason?

[lucyjojo]

have kids because i wanted to.

and life is beautiful.