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by teekert 133 days ago
It's a real challenge for a society based around personal freedom. Same goes for addictive apps. I feel the conflict within me.
5 comments

Regulating predatory business models is not in conflict with personal freedom
There is no definition of “predatory business model” that isn’t simply a reflection of the majority’s values, so there absolutely is a conflict between the two.

Are churches a predatory business? If the answer is no, then why are sugar manufacturers? If the answer is tradition etc., then that basically proves my point.

> Are churches a predatory business?

the institution that invented Tithes? The institution that if you go and put money in every sunday will help you organize weddings and funerals which are very important dates for people? Which will take old women aside and talk about getting into heaven and helping missions in poor countries full of poor little children?

That institution might have a predatory business model?

The threat of hell is certainly very uncoercive yeah

While I don't disagree with the assertion that churches are somewhat "predatory" with the threat of hell etc., this statement isn't really supporting that thesis:

> if you go and put money in every sunday will help you organize weddings and funerals which are very important dates for people

So basically you're paying for a service? Your argument would be much better if they didn't actually help people with important stuff.

Creating a hierarchy in lets say a small town, were people who pay in can have a funeral early/better date/better priest while people who dont pay get a wednesday mid work and no one can attend so the family has to say goodbye to their loved one without people creates the kind of environment where participating is not optional.

That is the kind of situation the funeral thing was highlighting, not the provision of a service, but the creation of a coercive incentive for social hierarchy and emotional support around a very difficult moment.

Its the same reason predatory loans are predatory, not because loans are bad but because you find people at their lowest and provide a service where they are incentivised to make reckless financial choices

I mean, there's a limited number of dates and priests. Are you suggesting there should be a fixed fee for funerals, which dates and priests being allocated randomly? That's certainly analogous to state-funded healthcare as compared to private healthcare, but unless you want the government to interfere in the church, I'm having a hard time seeing how you'd implement that. And I mean, all cultural things are "manipulation" in some sense, take the case of going to see the latest superhero movie on the release day. Of course the tickets would be more pricey, is that also coercive?
Personal freedom includes not being manipulated by commercial interests.
Sure, but all successful capitalist economies revolve around supporting commercial interests which prop up the tax revenue which then hold up the welfare state and public infrastructure, QoL and freedoms we enjoy.

THe big challenge is separating the good from the bad commercial interests. It's not a challenge because differentiating the good from the harmful is difficult, but because bad actor industries also make A LOT of money that buys a lot of political power and also employ a lot of people, so removing them from economy would have negative economic and political consequences.

Basically it's like a dead man's switch in a mutually assured destruction weapon.

Just because they employ a lot of people does not mean that removing them from economy would have negative economic consequences.

Killing the tobacco industry for example would have incredibly positive economic consequences, despite the job loss.

>Killing the tobacco industry for example would have incredibly positive economic consequences, despite the job loss.

Yeah but both tobacco industry employees and smokers vote. If they make up a large enough voter base, then this is political suicide in any democracy.

Hence how it took until 2019 to ban indoor smoking in my EU country, even though it was known for a long time it's a public health issue.

Personal freedom only works when someone is educated enough to make their own choices imho.
Most people know being fat, smoking and so on are bad. Its mostly not an education issue. But an outlook on live issue.
We have banned heroin so we should be able to ban anything else that's toxic. For us, close ones or even the generations to come.

Algorithm, food, intoxicants, anything that has manipulative potential.

> We have banned heroin so we should be able to ban anything else that's toxic

Except banning heroin clearly didn't work so well! There's still a lot of people using it. And the profits from selling it go to criminal gangs. And the people using it often die due to inconsistent dosing.

How do you define "manipulative potential"? If you ban sugar in drinks, do you ban fruit juice too? Where do we draw the line for "acceptable harm"? Personally I don't want to live in a society which bans huge numbers of things.

You can tax drinks based on the amount of sugar they contain. Yes, including juices.
Yeah, in my country oat milk is now taxed as a juice, of course milk isn't. So the plant based alternative is now 2x the price of cow milk. Thanx Milk industry.
Milk is an order of magnitude healthier than the highly processed sludge called oak “milk”.
Source?
I agree. Maybe one would need to ban the misinformative marketing (although I know that opens another can of worms).
What's the difference between a big company and a criminal gang if not for the law? If it wasn't for the big companies, more dangerous things would be illegal, just like Heroin and other hard drugs.
I mean, it's not often you hear about tobacco dealers shooting each other in a crowded mall, or alcohol bosses getting their house blown up (or sometimes their neighbors house). So there might be a few small differences between companies and criminal gangs.
> or alcohol bosses getting their house blown up (or sometimes their neighbors house).

There was a time when alcohol dealing led to an awful lot of that sort of violence. We put a stop to it when we legalized Alcohol and regulated it.

It didn't seem to go too well last time it was attempted with one other drug. Namely ethanol. It might be time to try again as there doesn't seem to be any safe consumption level.
Well, yeah, but who are you to decide what I do with my body? I'm not hurting anyone. (Nice to meet you, I'm the advocate of the Devil.)
If I would look onto you as my obedient slavish worker I would like you to not kill yourself.
Shall we ban sex too?

Our bodies interact with extremely large amounts of elements in the environment and behavior that act beyond our conscious comprehension.

Sometimes in our favour and some others against us.

Banning everything that at some point worked against us is just establishing human life full of total deprivation. Worse than living in jail. Good luck maintaining a society in those conditions.

The individual and the society should instead focus on educating and teaching how to navigate an environment full of those elements.

That would be fine, if countries like the USA weren't actively turning their backs on logic and facts, and returning to a period that history refers to as the "dark ages"
I'm having a hard time seeing a valid comparison between the act of keeping the species alive and the act of consuming poisonous chemicals.
Notice something curious. The correlation with discussions around regulating businesses, freedom, and social media attention.

There is a strong correlation between someone making money and someone arguing that people being able to make money is about freedom.

And here we are a few centuries into capitalism and people say that they are conflicted because personal freedom = making money off people. Effectively.

Yet there are many freedoms that are not profitable. We just have to sit down in a chair and think it through for ten minutes. Preferably without the corrupting influence of a scren.

And the addictive algorithm is not far away from violence.

The power asymmetry behind and in the front of the six inch screen is immense.