[throw310822]

I find the religious side as naive as it is pointless. Of course there are two populations that differ in religion and ethnicity- although Judaism is a culture as well as a religion, Jews are at the same time an ethno-religious group, accepting almost no converts, and mix of multiple ethnicities bound by a common cultural heritage. Many (Israeli) Jews are atheists. On the other hand, Palestinians include also a Christian minority and even large familial tribes of well-known Jewish origin. But let’s clear the field from confounding factors. Someone comes to your home, chases you out and claims it exclusively for himself and his family. This is what happened, metaphorically with the whole land, and literally with Palestinians’ homes. The religious factor here is secondary- there is a nationalistic factor at play, a tribal factor, where one group invades some land (to which it claims a tenuous historical/ religious connection) and chases out its current inhabitants to have complete control over it.

How do we explain the ongoing conflict? First of all, as I’ve just shown, it’s all very simple: western immigrants come to a foreign land and decide to take it for themselves and those who they deem to belong their group (which they also decide it includes middle-eastern Jews, which they call in from yet other countries). Violent reaction ensues, but the superior forces of the colonisers, backed by western powers, is overwhelming. Every outburst of violence provides the excuse for new land grabs, so the violent resistance of the colonised becomes the necessary fuel for further colonisation. Provocations need to be kept at the right level.

Israel is a small country, in good part arid or desert. Every few sq. kms of expansion do provide substantial increase in the total land available. Just think of the real estate value of square kilometres of land becoming open for development in such a small country. Imagine the real estate value of 40 kms of mediterranean coastline. Not to mention the natural resources, the gas fields outside the coast that fall in part into Palestinian borders. The reason for fuelling the tensions that provide the excuses for more land grab is obvious.

As for the price of this constant tension and the terrorism, nations have sent entire generations to die for much less. The price that Israel is paying for what it’s getting, for what it will eventually get, is frankly a bargain one. A good part of its military is subsidised by the US anyway.

Ok, then what’s the way out? The simplest one. Just. Set. A. Fucking. Border. Forever. The 1967 border. Make sure Israel understands that the border will never change and that anything that is built or brought beyond that border is on foreign land and will be given to Palestinians. Sanction every violation, shoot on any vehicle that crosses the border without authorisation in either direction. Give money to Palestinians to rebuild and organise their own country. Make sure both Palestinians and Israelis feel safe inside their respective borders. End of the story. With safety and the end of the occupation hatred and fanaticism will eventually subside.

The astute reader might ask: if it’s so simple, why nobody proposes it? Then please re-read paragraph 3.

[mhb]

> if it’s so simple, why nobody proposes it? please re-read paragraph 3

Please re-read Hamas's charter.

[throw310822]

I know I shouldn't, but let's try to have a dialogue. Do you think that if Hamas disappeared and Palestinians became friendly and peaceful, Israel would forever stop expanding its colonies? Can you answer succinctly with a yes or a no avoiding introducing new elements, if possible?

[throw627933788]

This is a common trope pushed by Iran and others, which is ridiculous if you just look at a map and zoom out until you can see all the Arab countries - Israel becomes barely visible.

Since 1967 the total area under control by Israel has shrunk significantly, with the return of Sinai to Egypt in exchange of lasting peace - that hasn’t been broken in 40 years.

In 2005, Gaza was ethnically cleansed from Jews and all settlements dismantled by Israel.

So the idea that Muslims have to fear an ever expanding Israel is ridiculous.

[mhb]

Yes.

[throw310822]

And do you think that the many nationalist, extremist elements in the Israeli society (settlers, right wing parties, the Likud itself that in its founding charter declares that "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty") want this to happen? To have to give up forever any dream and promise of colonising the entire historical Palestine?

[mhb]

It didn't take long for that dialogue idea to go out the window.

[throw310822]

Why, I don't get it. You don't think there are extremists or far-right nationalists in Israel? The National Religious Party–Religious Zionism is part of the government. The Likud charter is clear. If you have given a serious thought to the issue, you must have wondered what their attitude would be towards an end to the expansion of Israel.

[skissane]

> accepting almost no converts

This isn't true. Most Jewish communities do accept converts (the Syrians Jews are a notable exception). They don't make it as easy as Christians or Muslims do, but I'm not aware of any cases of someone who was seriously committed and motivated and willing to give the process time being rejected – and if that ever happened, they could surely find some other Rabbi willing to give them a different answer. I think the bigger reason why relatively few people convert is relatively few people are drawn to it.

Well-known converts to Judaism include Sammy Davis Jr, Elizabeth Taylor, Zooey Deschanel, Isla Fisher, Walter Kaufmann (the Nietzsche scholar), Ivanka Trump.

And Israel accepts converts for immigration under the Law of Return. The rapper Nissim Black converted to Orthodox Judaism, joined the Breslov Hasidim, made aliyah and now lives in Jerusalem. Due to a Supreme Court of Israel ruling, it also accepts converts to non-Orthodox Judaism (such as Conservative and Reform), even though Israel does not legally consider them Jewish for purposes of family law; but not converts to groups whose claims to Jewish identity are not generally recognised, such as the Christian-derived "Messianic Judaism", or Black Hebrew Israelite groups. (Some of the latter of which have been allowed to settle in Israel, but not under the Law of Return, under an ad hoc arrangement.)

[throw310822]

> not aware of any cases of someone who was seriously committed and motivated and willing to give the process time being rejected

Making it possible but requiring really strong motivation and time is a good way to discourage it. Facts speak by themselves: Jews are an ethnoreligious group, not a religion (you can be Jewish and atheist); they claim a genetic continuity with the Jews of the ancient Israel. This requires a mostly closed community that doesn't easily include converts, though a path exists. The few examples that you cite are exactly this: a few examples.

[skissane]

> Jews are an ethnoreligious group, not a religion

This is presenting the two categories as mutually exclusive, when they aren't.

Another commonly cited example of an ethnoreligious group are the Druze–which are even more closed than Judaism is, they haven't accepted converts since the 11th century; Jews disagree among themselves as to what conversions are valid, but the Druze answer is very simple – none are, unless they happened (almost) a thousand years ago. But the fact that Druze are an ethnoreligious group, doesn't mean they aren't a religion – they are. Of course, many Druze nowadays don't take their religion that seriously (the same is true of many Catholics and Muslims and Buddhists), but that doesn't mean the Druze religion doesn't have identifiable theological content (e.g. the Epistles of Wisdom) which make it a religion.

In the UK, Sikhs are legally classified as an "ethnoreligious group" (see Mandla v Dowell-Lee [1982] UKHL 7), but that doesn't mean Sikhism isn't a religion. Again, Sikhism has clearly identifiable religious teachings (e.g. the Guru Granth Sahib). Sikhism isn't hard to convert to at all, but that wasn't seen as relevant by the UK legal system; while it (mostly) doesn't actively evangelise like many Christians or Muslims do, it doesn't try to filter potential converts for their seriousness like Judaism does. The low level of conversion to Sikhism seems to be more due to few non-Sikhs being interested in it, rather than Sikhs trying to discourage non-Sikhs from doing so.

> you can be Jewish and atheist

You can also be Christian and an atheist. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism

To quote leading New Atheist Richard Dawkins, "I call myself a cultural Christian"

Of course, "Jewish as a non-religious identity" and "Christian as a non-religious identity" don't work in completely the same way – but they don't work in completely different ways either. And consider Northern Ireland, where asking an atheist whether they are a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist or neither makes much more sense than it would in most of the rest of the world.

[throw310822]

> This is presenting the two categories as mutually exclusive, when they aren't.

You're right, there was a "just" missing there: "an ethnoreligious group, not just a religion". Though the religion is properly called Judaism, not Jewishness.

That said, seems we're nitpicking on details. Judaism is a religion for one people, it doesn't seek converts, and the good overlap between the ethnic group and the religion (actual or claimed by the Jews themselves) is the basis for the idea of a right to a "return" to the historical land of Israel.

[mhb]

> it doesn't seek converts

Good try at moving the goalposts. Evangelizing and accepting converts are completely different things.

[alighter]

In your vision, can Jews live on the other side of the border?

[throw310822]

As long as they accept to live under a Palestinian state. (Normally immigration should have a path to citizenship and voting rights, but both Israel and Palestine would want to preserve the national nature of their states, as Israel already does).

[throw627933788]

How many Jews live under Palestinian control at the moment?

[throw310822]

I have no idea, but it's funny that some people think this is a smart question that will make them score a point.

Why would Jews want to live as the Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza, when that means living under occupation, being subjected to Israeli military law, being powerless against settlers violence and the prepotence of Israel? And what would they do, immigrate there from New York and start a farm, with a pinky promise that they won't turn into settlers and seek to join Israel?

And of course it would be risky, when they are so easily associated with the settlers and the occupying power- no point in denying it.

Nonetheless, there are entire large Palestinian clans that claim to descend from Jews and retain some of their customs: a famous example is the Makhamra family.

[throw57990226]

Jews that became Muslim are not a good counter-example.

Jews who haven’t converted to Islam have been ethnically cleansed from the West Bank by Jordan when they occupied it, and this apartheid is maintained by the Palestinian Authority. Anyone visibly Jewish who enters areas under total PA control gets arrested (or lynched).

Why can’t Jews live under Palestinian authority the same way Muslims live in Israel? This racism has led to a situation where the only way the Jews of the West Bank can be safe is by having an IDF presence.

Your “fears” of Jews turning into settlers are no different to the Islamophobes who say Muslims who come to live in western countries will turn them into caliphates.

[mhb]

And what happened to Israelis who wanted to take a stroll through Gaza (prior to October 7, of course)?

[throw310822]

What makes you think that Israelis can just "take a stroll" in a foreign country without asking permission (passport, visa, etc.)?

Anyway, there are Jewish journalists who have visited and spent time in Gaza. Here's Dan Cohen (precisely on the topic of safety of Jews in Gaza):

https://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/jewish-reporter-responds/#sth...

Here's Max Blumenthal:

https://globalvoices.org/2014/08/16/journalists-visit-gaza-t...

Here's Anthony Loewenstein:

https://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/hope-lives-in-gaza-despite-si...

Then there is Amira Hass, who actually lives in Ramallah and has reported from Gaza. These are the ones I know, there are certainly others.