[joe_mamba]

>This looks like it will help a lot of students and families who are on a budget. If you can just plug your phone into a screen you do not need to buy a separate laptop anymore.

Except that android phones with display output are mostly flagships with flagship prices.

But 50 Euros on the used market got me a retired corporate HP/Dell laptop with 1080p screen, intel 8th gen i5 quad core, 8GB RAM and 256GB NVME on which I put Linux. Way better for studying and productivity than my android phone hooked up to the TV.

It's a nice feature to have as a backup in case my laptop dies, but I wouldn't daily drive an android phone as a desktop computer for productivity.

[adrian_b]

Actually many ridiculously expensive "flagship" smartphones do not have DisplayPort and some do not have even USB 3.

The chances to find DisplayPort in what nowadays have become medium-price smartphones, i.e. $500 to $600, are about as good as finding DisplayPort in a "flagship".

[joe_mamba]

Which flagships (other than Apple), don't ship with display output?

AFAIK Samsung, Google and all major Chinese brands have display output on their flagships.

[jeroenhd]

Resell the 8GB of RAM and buy an even better phone then? That's 150 euros of value right there.

Then use the money on a reputable second hand store to buy a used S20 5G 128GB for 150 euros, or a S22 128GB for 145, maybe an S21 Ultra 5G 256GB for 139, and you've got yourself a valiant workstation already (Samsung DeX works great out of the box, no need to wait for Google here). I can also find an S20+ 5G 128GB for 75 euros with display damage (but that doesn't matter when you hook it up to a monitor).

On another website I can find an S20+ 5G with cracks in the edges of the touch screen for 50 euros. That's 12GiB of RAM, 128GiB of storage, a 3200x1440p@120Hz screen and 5G connectivity built in. You're gonna need a Bluetooth mouse and keyboard (that's like what, 5 euros?) to hook it up to the TV but then you're good.

[bigwheels]

Where is the $150 euros coming from? 8GB of brand new DDR3 or DDR4 is available for $20-$30 from Amazon / Fleabay, and once he sells it the laptop will no longer work.

[jeroenhd]

That's the standard price for 8GB DDR4 RAM in the local major web shop. I'm sure there are cheaper options out there, but people are willing to pay more than that to get a shipping date before October.

[ndriscoll]

I'm seeing plenty of 8 GB DDR4 SODIMMs on ebay for ~$20-30. AFAIK laptop RAM was not hit in the same way since it's not really readily reusable in other types of computer, and laptops don't generally have unused slots to just plop in more RAM.

[bloqs]

Phones also have ram

[heavyset_go]

Why buy a used phone that will stop receiving updates, can't be fixed or upgraded and can't run whatever you want on it when you can use a real computer instead?

[jeroenhd]

The chances of the 50 euro laptop getting Windows 10 updates longer than a second hand Samsung phone are slim.

As for "can't be fixed or upgraded", ask any macOS user.

[ezst]

Who in their right mind would put Windows on such a device, though? This is THE hardware generation that Microsoft painted a target on with their planned obsolescence strategy. I don't know if there can be a clearer signalling that it is to be avoided at all costs.

[heavyset_go]

I'm running bleeding edge Linux on computers I bought in 2006.

Meanwhile, the phone I bought a year ago is stuck on a 3 year old non-LTS kernel point release, and it will be forever.

[backscratches]

Old computers also stop getting microcode updates fairly quickly.

[heavyset_go]

This is a real issue and I don't know why you got downvoted

[olyjohn]

Why though? You can do so much more with a laptop than be trapped in Google's walled garden.

[jeroenhd]

It heavily depends on where you live, but plenty of poorer areas that never had much desktop computer penetration because of affordability are going app-first. Richer countries are going app-first for things like banking and government ID too, because the security situation with locked-down phones is a lot better than on the desktop where FreeFortniteRobloxUpdate.exe can drain your savings without you ever noticing it.

You're going to need a phone anyway. Might as well save some money by not having to get a laptop for doing your taxes once a year.

Most normal people don't really care about Google's walled garden. That's a tech person thing. I wouldn't do it, but none of the people who don't have a favourite Linux distro care about any of this.

[joe_mamba]

>Might as well save some money by not having to get a laptop for doing your taxes once a year. Most normal people don't really care about Google's walled garden. That's a tech person thing.

Most "normal people" don't use their phones hooked to their TVs as desktop computers. It's a very niche scenario.

They use their old laptop or tablet from school, university or hand-me-down from parent/relative for that task, since we're going with your assumption of living in a rich country where access to cheap hardware is abundant and 50 Euros is a very basic dinner for 2, so unlikely for people's livelihoods to be threatened by skimping 50 bucks once in their lifetime on some personal computing device besides their phone.

And in the specific case of living in a rich country, you might not even need to spend that 50, since I am yet to meet anyone who in case of need, can't just get a old computer for virtually free as hand-me-down from parent/friend/relative where it's collecting dust, if you just need a PC to do your taxes once a year. It's a lot more realistic scenario than people hooking up phones to TVs to do their taxes.

[joe_mamba]

That's a nicely thought out setup, but why would other people want to do that hassle, instead of just getting a cheap laptop, which is what most people do?

You're making up niche scenarios for the sake of winning an argument, but you don't daily drive, you don't dog-food yourself, they're only good as concepts on paper, but not in practice.

The market for people buying obsolete phones to connect to their TV as their daily driver workhorse computers is insanely small, even on quirky HN let alone outside this bubble. So who do you think you are convincing/converting with this?

Like the most popular Androids are Samsungs and Samsung has been shipping DEX on their flagships since for-ever, and how many of their users actually use it? Or how many buy them just for that feature alone? You haven't discovered an untapped market here that will replace PC/laptops for most average people.

[gf000]

A 2-3 generation old pixel on the second hand marker is not expensive at all though.

And you easily add a mouse/keyboard just fine to it.

[joe_mamba]

>A 2-3 generation old pixel on the second hand marker is not expensive at all though.

Sure but at around 300 bucks is still way over 50 bucks.

And even if you get a used Pixel 8, having separate phone and computer adds a priceless layer of redundancy and flexibility.

If someone steals my phone, I don't want to also loose my work PC with it.

[cogman10]

You are also buying a soon to be unmaintained device which will fall out of security support.

That $50 PC can run linux with the latest kernel for the next 20 years (maybe longer).

[joe_mamba]

There's lineageOS for outdated pixel device, but I think you loose device attestation if you flash that, so your banking, payment and digital-ID apps won't work anymore which is kind of important features for a lot of people.

I still think separating a phone for phone apps and a PC for productivity, is the best choice even if that PC is a 20 year old rustbucket from the dumpster, it will still do more tasks than a phone. You can't learn photoshop on a phone.

[cogman10]

The lineageOS kernel isn't guaranteed to be super up to date. It's often based on the manufacturer's kernel. There's also possibly binary blobs involved which can't be checked or updated.

[joe_mamba]

If your device is on the official supported list then it will always be up to date to a point. You're not gonna get android 16 on 10+ year old phones.

[IncreasePosts]

Your banking app might not work but your bank probably also offers a web page that you can just load up in your browser

[bossyTeacher]

There is a growing trend among banks to keep the web app usable only for emergency purposes (notify bank that your phone got stolen or lost and authorize the installation of the bank on a new phone) and only allow functionality on their mobile apps.

[jabwd]

"work pc" -- random 50 dollar fire hazard running Linux. Anyway, those Android phones though they are obviously going to be the unreliable part in this story.

[butlike]

I'm right there with relating to this mindset, however, I recently (in the past 2 weeks) got to experience restoring a new phone from backup without the old one present, and it's becoming essentially a non-issue. I can't think of a single thing that wasn't restored from cloud backup.

[semi-extrinsic]

Isn't Pixel 10 the first one with fully supported desktop mode?

I remember I was very confused when buying a Pixel 7 to replace my (then 3 year old) Huawei P30 Pro, and the inferior camera + lack of desktop mode made it feel like a net downgrade.

[ThePointed]

I use it on my Pixel 8 Pro too It's a toggle in Developer options, Local Desktop.

[adrian_b]

According to Google's help site, no Pixel has a desktop mode (like you can find at Motorola, Samsung and others).

The latest Pixel models have DisplayPort, but their operating system only provides screen mirroring or app window mirroring on an external monitor. Unlike Pixel, the phones with a true desktop mode can display multiple windows on the monitor, and presumably they can have a selectable resolution for the monitor. I assume that for screen mirroring the monitor is used at the same resolution as the phone screen, i.e. either 1080 lines or only slightly more.

Moreover, while the help site states that DisplayPort exists in Pixel 8 and newer, Google does not bother to advertise the existence of this feature in its online shop, where there is no mention about this in the phone specifications.

[gf000]

> operating system only provides screen mirroring or app window mirroring on an external monitor

That's not true. It's probably written that way, because this is still an experimental feature so it is indeed not "supported", but it does work, you just have to toggle a few settings inside developer options.

And in this desktop mode it could make use of my 2k desktop screen, though it is quite buggy (it is a pixel 8 device, for reference)

[adrian_b]

Good to know, but the fact that the knowledge about the possibility of connecting an external monitor is very well hidden on the Google site and the existence of a true desktop mode is even better hidden from any potential Google customers, does not inspire confidence.

From this state of affairs I cannot be sure that if I bought a Google Pixel it would really be usable with a monitor, as such hidden features could be removed at any time.

Other smartphone vendors clearly specify for their phones whether e.g. they support DisplayPort 1.4, so that they can use a monitor at a decent resolution, and whether they have a desktop mode.

[backscratches]

8 and up support secondary displays

[jeffbee]

Note that such capabilities were added to the 8 after it launched. When they launched it they did not even mention that it contains displayport alt mode.

[realusername]

Old pixels don't have HDMI output, I learned it the hard way when the screen of my Pixel 3a died.

[backscratches]

Only pixel 8 and up have DP. So 2 generations old. I guess soon it will be 3rd gen.

[nfriedly]

The moto g100 is a good example of a midrange phone with decent specs, including video output. It launched at $400, and can be bought for around $200 these days.

It has a Snapdragon 870, 8gb RAM, 128gb storage, a microSD slot, headphones jack, and a big enough battery to last 2 days. It's a little chunky, and it's not waterproof, but beyond that it's just about everything I ever wanted in a phone.

Motorola, of course, has already abandoned it. But it still gets up-to-date Android via Lineage OS and other community made ROMs.

[joe_mamba]

How did they abandon it? It release october last year according to google.

>but beyond that it's just about everything I ever wanted in a phone.

I get that, but none of this answers my question of why people should use that to a TV, instead of a PC, other than to flex? It really isn't more practical, nor saving you money and you're still limited to the apps of android ecosystem rather than the windows/linux one.

[nfriedly]

> How did they abandon it? It release october last year according to google.

Oh, geez, I didn't realize they abandoned it so hard they even recycled the name! I was referring to the 2021 g100: https://m.gsmarena.com/motorola_moto_g100-10791.php - it looks like the 2025 recycle lacks video output :/ https://m.gsmarena.com/motorola_moto_g100_5g_(china)-14228.p...

As for why anyone should do it, I'm not really arguing that anyone should. I was just trying to point out that it's more affordable than you might think. (Although it can't beat the deal you got on your laptop.)

I think it might make sense if you already have a laptop dock with a screen and a keyboard at home and at school/work, and your needs were fairly lightweight, and you really valued portability. Or as you suggested, it could just serve as a backup device in case your main laptop gets broken or whatever.

[butlike]

Who has the time?

I just want to get a new phone and be on my way. The last thing I want to do is download a community OS and/or roms on Day 1

[nfriedly]

Yeah, fair enough. I actually really like the recent trend of Android manufacturers committing to 7 years of software updates, because yeah, community ROMs really aren't for everyone.

My point was more that there are affordable options if you're inclined to do a bit of tinkering.

[nutjob2]

You don't wired need display output, just WiFi. Motorola's Smart Connect desktop uses Miracast for using TVs and the like as desktop monitors as well as wired.

I got my moto g84 5G with 8/256 GB for about 170 euros new and it supports it (not wired). Seems to work fine.

[joe_mamba]

Is it any good? Last time I tried miracast the framerate and video quality was total garbage due to shit compression. Barely worked for streaming youtube videos to the TV but no way I could do it for productivity.

[cromka]

Same here. The only way to make streaming between devices is the way Apple does it, directly, not via Access Point.

[jeroenhd]

Mirecast (when done properly) is basically a video stream over a peer-to-peer WiFi Direct connection. H.264+AAC/AC3/PCM audio sent over RTSP/RTP using a standard IPv4 stack. Better codecs are available on newer devices. Two modern WiFi 6 devices can stream gigabits per second that way if configured right, there's no need for the typical low FPS, lag, and desynchronised audio from a protocol standpoint.

For some reason, a lot of implementations (especially on the receiving end) suck at this. The latency seems to be terrible and TVs and displays seem to care more about reassembling old frames than about showing the latest good signal. However, it's not all that different from what Apple is doing.

Miracast over ethernet/via an access point is something different (something I've never really seen used myself).

[LoganDark]

Doesn't Apple do it by having the AirPlay receiver be its own access point? LAN in comparison indeed isn't ideal.

[nosrepa]

I'm ignorant on this topic, can you not just plug a USB dock with HDMI out in any android phone and get a display out? I do it all the time on the previous three pixel phones I've had, but I didn't know that this was limited to those?

[thebruce87m]

USB-C is only a connector/socket - a device having a USB-C socket does not guarantee much beyond being able to plug a USB-C connector into it.

Some USB-C devices only use the port for charging for example. Others might only support USB 2.0.

Getting a display out from something with USB-C socket needs the device to support something called DP Alt Mode.

Note that cables matter too - you can have a DP alt mode enabled monitor and phone, but if you have the wrong cable it won’t work. Welcome to the future.

[2III7]

It is understandable that every cable doesn't have to and shouldn't support every feature. USB cables would be insaney overpriced in that case. For simple charging you don't need a high speed 40gbps cable that can connect an external GPU.

To mitigate the confusion, all simple charging cables should be universally labeled as such and all high speed cables should also have some markings that indicate the maximum speed of the cable or something similar.

[thebruce87m]

It’s understandable, but the reality is that many people like my 82 year old mother will use the wrong cable and have no clue why it’s not working.

[hulitu]

> all simple charging cables should be universally labeled as such

labeling hurts profits.

[nicoburns]

> Except that android phones with display output are mostly flagships with flagship prices.

Might well be that this becomes a lot more common on cheaper phones if it becomes a popular feature though. A display port output isn't currently that useful, so it's something it makes sense to cut from budget models. But if this desktop functionality becomes popular that calculus may change.

[prmoustache]

I am pretty sure brands would rather sell you additionnal devices, like tablets or chromebook (will they be called androidbooks?) than make budget models able to do so.

[LoganDark]

> Except that android phones with display output are mostly flagships with flagship prices.

My Motorola Photon Q 4G LTE was like $80 in 2015 and had a mini HDMI. I expect nowadays most phones can output display over USB-C.

[jeroenhd]

Some "flagship" and higher-end-midtier phones cheap out on the USB connection. USB 2 over USB-C with USB-PD for fast charging. No video out, slow data transfers.

Maybe when desktop mode becomes more common there will be an incentive to fix the shitty USB situation.

Cheap phones probably won't really have the power to effectively multi-task so I imagine cheap models would rather disable the feature than leave the user with a bad UI.

[LoganDark]

> USB 2 over USB-C with USB-PD for fast charging.

Sometimes you're lucky to even have conformant USB-PD. For example, OnePlus for a while had "Warp charging" and the phones wouldn't accept high power over regular USB-C PD.

[jeroenhd]

USB-PD support has been made a requirement for GPlay Android. Manufacturers don't need to support USB-PD for their crazy 200W charging circuits, but it's been a while since you had the choice between 5-10W USB2.0 and 80W Warp Charge.

[jml7c5]

Surprisingly, no. It's a "premium" feature these days.

[heresie-dabord]

> Except that android phones with display output are mostly flagships with flagship prices.

There are exceptions. For example, the Motorola Edge has DP Alt Mode.

https://uperfect.com/blogs/wikimonitor/list-of-smartphones-w...

[okokwhatever]

Do you understand how much are 50 bucks in a third world country? I mean, Android phone is not the cheapest solution for the poor (obviously) but it helps a lot having this kind of features for a family.

[joe_mamba]

>Do you understand how much are 50 bucks in a third world country?

Yes I do, no need to patronize us with that since even in 3rd world countries people have access to old computers from ewaste imports at a reasonable price, we don't all live in straw mudhuts wearing loincloths swinging from branch to branch.

Now tell me which 50 euro phone ships with display output and is readily available. AFAIK Oneplus 7T I had is the cheapest with that feature but still over 50 and official SW goes to Android 12. Not sure if flashing lineage will still keep display output feature.

Then there's the issue of availability in 3rd world countries, where it might be easier to find some scrapped Dell optiplex with a core 2 duo, or a beat up Acer from the windows 7 era for cheap at your local market versus a cheap android with display output capabilities being more of a unicorn. Sure you'll find your Pixel 8s and or Samsung S24s too, but those imports don't come cheap there, compared to the masses of lesser known cheap chinese phones but those don't have display output and their software is shit.

Plus, if you go that route of Pixel 8 as a pc, you still need the budget for an external display, mouse and keyboard and your battery will wear out much faster. So then why not get a cheap laptop which has all the peripherals?

Plus 2, old phones age very poorly performance wise, they slow down a lot due to thermal paste and battery degradation and nobody makes quality OP 7T batteries anymore to do a swap and get back to out of the box performance. What you find on Aliexpress now are fakes or poor quality clones. While a laptop is much easier to repair and maintain as parts wear out or break.

[jeroenhd]

If you can't find an affordable phone with DP-Alt mode, you can get it working by getting clever.

Any Android phone with a USB port can have a dock attached with ethernet, a keyboard, and a mouse. Connect a Chromecast to any HDMI display. Cast to that display.

Then install 1) a taskbar app (there are dozens on Google Play), 2) enable freeform windows in the device and 3) cast your phone to your Chromecast.

Alternatively, even the shitty phones with just USB 2 dongles can enable their desktop mode by using DisplayLink; no DP-Alt mode necessary. Worse on the battery, but works over USB micro if need be.

The biggest hurdle is software support. For getting the display to work, there are plenty of workarounds possible.

[omnifischer]

> people have access to old computers from ewaste imports at a reasonable price,

Are you joking?

One can get super good condition Dell latitudes with 8th gen Intel with 8GB RAM and 256GB NVMe with 1 year no-questions asked warranty (and original charger) for €100. Similar ones cost 2x or 3x in India. That is not reasonable.

> don't all live in straw mudhuts wearing loincloths

No. But not everyone is earning in Bengaluru campus. Look at the typical Rapido driver.

[izacus]

Can you be specific which countries are you talking about?

Because you seem to be in a word fight with very vague arguments and with someone else with very vague arguments and it's not even clear you're talking about same things.

So can you be clear on:

- Which counties you're talking about? - Why are those countries important to think about in this case? - Why doesn't this feature help people from regions that can afford a mid-to-top range smartphone?

[joe_mamba]

>- Which counties you're talking about?

Pick any you like, Income/GDP is more important metric rather than which specific country.

>- Why are those countries important to think about in this case?

Why are you asking me? Ask the people who brought up third world countries as the target user base for phones with display output. I'm the one not agreeing with this point since it's stupid.

>- Why doesn't this feature help people from regions that can afford a mid-to-top range smartphone?

I explained already below in detail why. But to reiterate in short, if your monthly income is in the ~200$ a month ballpark, you're not gonna be spending 300$ on a mid-to-top range smartphone just for the display output feature even if you managed to save up that money. Even in Europe some people skoff at paying 300 Euros for a phone but some here think people in nations with 10x less income are somehow the userbase for this feature because in their mind those people can't afford a 20$ dumpster PC, but somehow they can afford a 300$ pixel 8 and external monitor.

[LoganDark]

I have some friends in Argentina where even just a few USD goes a long way. I occasionally throw them something like $10 USD and that gets them GPU, disk upgrades, etc., it's nuts.

[izacus]

I'm asking you because you're part of the fight and are talking about costs without providing the context.

So, which one did you pick to talk about to make a counterpoint?

[drecked]

This is mistaken in a few way.

1. In 3rd world countries everyone has a phone, usually android, no matter how poor the are. Irrespective of whether or not it has desktop capabilities. So any phone purchase is already part of their baseline expenses.

2. Any desktop/laptop purchase, even if it is $1, is an extra $1.

3. The screens/keyboards/mouse again will not likely be purchased by individuals themselves. They will have “Internet cafes”, libraries, schools, etc where those screens will be provided.

[joe_mamba]

>This is mistaken in a few way.

Only when you ignore the numbers.

>1. [...] So any phone purchase is already part of their baseline expenses.

Yeah but that base line expense can be 50$ or $300. Big difference. Not everyone in 3rd world countries has 300 for a Pixel 8. That's the biggest flaw in your argument. That, and the fact that walking around with an exotic 300$ Pixel 8 flags you as a potential target for mugging in the wrong neighbourhoods, verus a beat up 50$ Samsung or Huawei.

>2. Any desktop/laptop purchase, even if it is $1, is an extra $1.

Hence why a 50$ laptop and a 50$ android phone leaves you better off than blowing 300$ on just the phone alone. And if even 1$ is THAT critical to your daily survival, then you're not buying 300$ phones anyway to begin with. You're buying the cheapest you can get so that in case it gets stolen you don't lose 6 months of savings.

>3. The screens/keyboards/mouse again will not likely be purchased by individuals themselves. They will have “Internet cafes”, libraries, schools, etc where those screens will be provided.

You think in 3rd world countries people just have displays with USB-C docks, keyboards and mice everywhere in public and at home? I know it's getting difficult to tell them apart these days, but we're talking about 3rd world countries, not the bay area.

[gf000]

The pixel 8 costs that much now. Give it a few years and check back on it later (when this feature actually drops) and the phone might end up being much more affordable.

Nonetheless, I do agree with you that simply getting a used low-end laptop is cheaper, but being poor in a GDP/capita way is not the only kind of blocker. Being poor in a "my family can buy me a phone because it's a necessity, but we don't have a computer" is not uncommon, and many people end up developing on their phone, simply because that's what they have.

[kasabali]

you've missed:

4. used electronics in 3rd world countries are much more expensive compared to developed ones (because not as much units were sold when they were new to begin with), so 50 euros will get you a 3rd gen in a poor condition at best (or some shit tier Celeron N-thousand something with a soldered 4GB RAM)

[joe_mamba]

Few issues with that.

For one, PCs still make it there via ewaste shipments that then get repaired and sold for cheap, so you can have decent variety of old stuff.

And secondly, even a "3rd gen in a poor condition at best (or some shit tier Celeron N-thousand something with a soldered 4GB RAM)" as you call it, is better for learning marketable skills and making stuff, than whatever you can do on your phone, since office jobs will ask for skills with using a PC, not how skilled you are using a phone.

But hey, if you think you can pass through engineering school with only a phone and no computer, then all power to you.

[kasabali]

> For one, PCs still make it there via ewaste shipments that then get repaired and sold for cheap, so you can have decent variety of old stuff.

No you can't. Unlike you, I'm talking from experience when I'm telling what €50 gets you in used marked in a non-developed country.

[prmoustache]

You surely do realize that desktop mode on a smartphone needs a display, a keyboard and a pointer device too right? You can get a decent and complete laptop with 1070p screen for the price of a 720p only TV/Monitor.