[mrtksn]

It's the same with Putin. EU-Russia had a good working relationship where Russia sends oil&gas and EU sends Mercedes and Adidas and live happily. However this is not enough for the megalomaniacs at the top, this is boring they need to be conquerors they need their place in the history books be longer than a chapter.

Maybe going forward there must be safeguards against power accumulation. The checks and balances obviously didn't work, so something more potent is needed.

In Europe it took Putin, Erdogan and the others 20 years to come the place where Trump reached in less than a years, so US needs it much more acutely obviously.

BTW this is not only about protecting the society from their existence but also protect the society from their sudden disappearance. With such concentration of power, the power of the nation often dies with those people. If they survive long enough to transition power peacefully, the best they can do is to leave it to their son and their sons often turns out to inherit the brutalities without the skills.

[thrance]

Putin and Trump wouldn't be where they are without their respective oligarchical classes' supports. You can't have democracy when some private individuals are able to hold unto so much wealth and power, buying media and politicians, etc. This is what needs to be addressed if we don't want more Trumps and Putins.

[4gotunameagain]

If you look at old interviews of Putin and Lavrov, it is clear that they had been warning about NATO expansion and Ukraine for a long time.

On 12 June 2020, Ukraine joined NATO's enhanced opportunity partner interoperability program.

On 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine.

I think Putin is a dictator, but comparing Trump to Putin is simply clueless.

[mopsi]

  > If you look at old interviews of Putin

Yes, let's do that: https://x.com/adnashmyash/status/1977146505900573089

  2008: "Crimea is not disputed territory of Ukraine, and the issues of Russian speakers are internal issues of Ukraine."

  2013: "Russia certainly doesn't plan to send troops into Ukraine."

  2014: "After the annexation of Crimea, Russia doesn't plan to further divide Ukraine."

  2019: "It's nonsense that Russia plans to attack anyone in future."

  2022: "Russia's Special Military Operation does not involve the occupation of Ukrainian territories."

  2023: "The conflict in Ukraine is not a territorial conflict — we have plenty of own territories."

  2024: "Anyone who wants Russia to give up CONQUERED TERRITORIES in Ukraine must understand that this is impossible."

[4gotunameagain]

Your comment contradicts nothing from my argument. Of course the rhetoric changed as the situation changed.

It is silly to think that the largest country of the world needed a couple of ukrainian villages.

Unfortunately - and I know that you will disagree - even if Putin was the one that invaded, I place the blame on Ukraine and NATO.

[mopsi]

  > Of course the rhetoric changed as the situation changed.

Blaming NATO is just another such rhetoric, put forward because it is the most advantageous in the current situation. It activates fools who begin self-flagellation, and in the process, disrupt military aid to Ukraine, which helps the Russian war effort.

Even among Russians who can be considered serious experts, no one takes the "blame NATO" narrative seriously. It's an excuse. A pretext. Look up Hitler's speeches from early September 1939 and you will see similar rhetoric about Germany being surrounded by the Franco-British alliance, with Poland as its spearhead. The similarity is uncanny, because it follows a standard pattern of excuses used by aggressors: portraying themselves as threatened, framing their actions as defensive, and blaming external forces for the conflicts they themselves initiate.

[4gotunameagain]

Again, your comment is full of emotionally fuelled words, and no substance or refutation of my points.

I am honestly sorry your country has been invaded (you seem to be Ukrainian). But I would much rather have peace at the cost of Ukrainian territory, than continuous escalation and geopolitical rifts, at the cost of Ukrainian lives and risking an even larger conflict in Europe.

It was a mistake to let Ukraine be courted by the west.

[sigwinch]

Putin had years to get any NATO promises in writing. I wonder why Georgia and Ukraine and now Scandinavia want membership?