[pendenthistory]

Interestingly, there seems to be more good will and amiable vibes between EU nationalities than within the US even. Even being enemies for a thousand years, I don't doubt that Swedish and Danish men would go to war for one another, or French and German. It's complicated yes, but the continent is more unified in spirit than it may seem to an outsider.

[lpcvoid]

German here: I'd go to war (and likely will, with how it's looking currently) for any country that shares our values and is an ally or friend, that's being attacked by an evil force such as russia. And that of course includes my french brothers to the west.

[samiv]

Finnish reservist here in Germany. Ready to go. Prost!

[lpcvoid]

Prost, my friend. May we never have to meet.

[cft]

American expat here in Spain. I do 11 pull-ups every two days and run 7 miles uphill. Ready to go! Salud!

[samiv]

See you on the battlefield.

[card_zero]

Rarely have prime numbers been so macho.

[blell]

Spanish here: I wouldn't go to war even for my own country, imagine for the likes of France or Germany.

[lpcvoid]

80 years ago we were the bad guys, and far more brave people than me, from other countries, stepped up to curb the evil. This time us Germans need to be on the right side.

[C6JEsQeQa5fCjE]

> This time us Germans need to be on the right side

Your country is the second largest weapons exporter to Israel.

[yodsanklai]

Thanks German brother :) I think our main issue in Europe is the lack of a common language. It makes it harder to build strong ties and realize how close our values are.

[lpcvoid]

Which is why I long for the day where a European federation supersedes the weak and fragmented national states we have now.

Adopting English as legal secondary language in every EU member state would maybe be a good first step.

[blackoil]

Vat hapened tu ze komon English I got mail abaut 20 yers ago?

[ffsm8]

Agreed, there is always this little story to remind us of our unity - at least from the perspective of the draftees/workers back in ww1, where everyone was basically forced to fight each other by the elites

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce

[ahmeneeroe-v2]

That's pretty caveated. Not exactly a ringing war cry

Shares values AND Ally AND Being attacked AND Attacker is evil

I think you'll continue to be safe posting on HN

[lpcvoid]

People place individual, stringent conditions on life threatening responses? Keep going, you're on to something there.

[ahmeneeroe-v2]

Very funny you got me there.

I think you’ll find that threats of violence (which is what your comment is) need to be much more unhinged to be effective deterrents. Remember you’re warning off barbarians (eg us Americans or the Russians), not civilized folk.

[coryrc]

Are you posting from Ukraine?

[SanjayMehta]

If he is, it won't be for very long. The most visible merc was a retired US colonel, he ran off home within weeks, got drunk on the War on The Rocks podcast and revealed the corruption and depravity of the "good guys."

[modzu]

most humans share the same core values. values antithetical to war.

[Saline9515]

You should define what "our values" is when making such bold statements.

[lpcvoid]

Freedom of speech, democratically elected representatives, protection of minorities, religious freedom, to name a few.

I can already hear people storming out of the woods, ready to write how the EU itself is undemocratic, or how free speech isn't real in western European countries. I disagree with you.

[Saline9515]

Well, indeed, freedom of speech in the EU isn't freedom of speech as only a certain type of speech is allowed. Conveniently weakly defined "hate speech laws" (even in private conversations!) allow easy political suppression. Or just lawfare through defamation, which is happening in Germany at the moment (4,400 defamation cases by politicians, last year).

Regarding the EU, the only elected representatives don't have the right to choose which laws they will vote for. If it was in a soviet country no one would call it a democracy.

[SanjayMehta]

Jacques Baud, Alina Lipp, Thomas Röper, Nathalie Yamb, Xavier Moreau disagree with you.

And unlike you, some random anonymous poster on this polite version of Reddit, everyone knows what they do.

[lpcvoid]

They are pro russian propaganda mouthpieces and can go fuck themselves. Specially Alina Lipp, may she have fun in her beloved russia.

[SanjayMehta]

Have you ever been to Russia or The Ukraine?

Have you ever even met anyone from either country?

[Saline9515]

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky

[comonoid]

... such as usa?

[lpcvoid]

I have many moral problems with that scenario. I used to live in the US a long time ago. The US is sick; there's a mad king at the top who doesn't have the well being of the nation in his interest, and he is driving the world towards war with every passing day while dividing his own people. War with the US isn't a clear cut "good vs evil" situation as the EU vs russia would be, it would be a utter tragedy, not wanted by neither the populace of the EU, nor the US.

That said, yes, I would defend Europe against the US, even though I think that fight would be short, deadly and decisive if it really came down to it.

What a fucked up world we live in, just because idiots voted for a convicted felon.

[yodsanklai]

> War with the US isn't a clear cut "good vs evil" situation as the EU vs russia would be

I don't think EU vs Russia would be a "good vs evil" situation. Russia/US seem pretty similar to me, dictatorship/propaganda with a majority of the population being regular people not in favor of any war, and 30% of indoctrinated people.

[nkmnz]

You seem to have very little contact to Russians living in Russia or Germany. Their version of "not in favor of any war" is a very strange one – it's more a stance of indifference than disfavor.

[watwut]

Russians were and are pro war by all reports.

[yodsanklai]

not my Russians friends or colleagues. I also don't trust any poll coming from Russia.

[comonoid]

Propaganda never sleeps.

[gowld]

I don't know why you believe that a decades-long strict dictatorship like Russia has more democratic support for its "evil" government than a country whose leader was elected just 1 year ago with approximately 50% of the vote.

[lpcvoid]

Russians are lining up to go to war under the promise of money, around 30k a month last time I checked. Americans not so much, in particular not against Europeans. It's different in my view.

[ubertaco]

As an American, a sizable number of Americans are lining up to join ICE under the promise of money.

And also, our whole military recruitment strategy here outside of drafts has been "the GI bill" – paid tuition in exchange for lining up to go to war.

I don't know that the gap in morals is as wide as you think.

[jyounker]

The rot is much deeper. Donald Trump was impeached twice, and both times the Republicans voted to acquit him.

[Beretta_Vexee]

French here: If we can send French soldiers to fight and die in Mali for years, only to end up with a military junta that prefers the Russian Africakorps, I think we're ready to send our soldiers to die defending a European ally.

Plus, with global warming, this may be the last chance for the Alpine hunters to shine.

[samiv]

I think the people on this continent have a lot more in common than they might first realize. We certainly have our own cultures and language but beyond that I think we all share a certain European heritage, core culture and values.

There's a certain stigma especially in Germany caused by the WW2 and the the leadership has been complacent to rely on Bretton Woods agreement. But as we're seeing now the geopolitics are doing a 180 degree turnaround and given these circumstances I expect sooner or later Europe will collectively understand the utmost importance to com together and to regrow and redevelop the military to support independence and not having to bow down to any master in the East or int he West.

[kaffekaka]

Absolutely. "Finlands sak är vår." Finland's problem is our problem, same for Denmark and Norway. We must stand together, we have no choice.

[jll29]

The great minds that - after WWII - built the new Europe had in mind that there should never be war again, which is best realized when former enemies become friends and closer bonds are established at multiple levels: politically, economically, culturally (unions, trading exchanges, visits/open borders/teaching common European values in schools).

There is a strong political and cultural foundation in geographic Europe for the political EU: some exemplary giants/EU co-architects:

Jean Monnet/Robert Schuman

European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) Schuman Declaration (1950) [It is only right that the R. Schuman Roundabout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Schuman_Roundabout Rue houses the European quarter in Brussels.]

Konrad Adenauer

Promoted reconciliation with France pro-European

Alcide De Gasperi

Integrated Italy into Western Europe Advocated supranational institutions

Paul-Henri Spaak

institutional designer, key role in the Treaties of Rome (1957) helped design the European Economic Community (EEC) Advocated supranational institutions

Walter Hallstein

1st President, European Commission. Built EC into powerful, independent institution Championed the supremacy of European law

Altiero Spinelli

Wrote the Ventotene Manifesto (while imprisoned by Fascists) Advocated a federal Europe

Winston Churchill

A paradoxical but crucial figure: called for a “United States of Europe” (1946 speech) Influenced Europe’s post-war direction despite UK distance

François Mitterrand

Drove Maastricht Treaty with Helmut Kohl Pushed for the € Symbolized Franco-German partnership

Helmut Kohl

Franco-German friendship exemplified by Mitterand-Kohl personal friendship "Architect of modern Europe" German reunification Key figure behind the EU and monetary union

It's ironic that the name "U.S.E." (United States of Europe) was first proposed by a Brit, alas a smart one, and I'm sure Sir Winston Churchill would have had the oratory abilities to convince his countrymen that his idea had merit, but he did not live to see it. The Federation of Europe or United States of Europe is the logical end-point of the joint vision of all these foundational leaders.

[joe_mamba]

>Franco-German friendship exemplified by Mitterand-Kohl personal friendship

Ironic to call this a "friendship", when Mitterand along with Thatcher were working behind the scenes with the soviets to sabotage and stop Kohl's reunification of Germany. It was anything but a friendship, but more of a concession.

Politics is full of such examples that look friendly to the public, but hide a lot of sabotage and back stabbings in the background. In fact, the later is the norm in politics.

[mmooss]

Maybe you can be friends without always agreeing, and even when competing.

[joe_mamba]

Not when the competition is a zero sum game over critical resources. This isn't a game of table tennis, it's about competition over dominance.

Friendships are just the media facing image. In reality, if a country can gain an advantage over the other they see as an economic adversary, and has the means to enforce it without repercussions, they'll do it. Then they'll meet up in front of the media, shake hands and gaslight the peasants on how this benefits everyone.

The true friendships in between countries are made over decades/centuries over shared blood, heritage and culture because humans are tribalistic and have own group preference. Forcing friendships via political declarations doesn't work.

Let me explain with examples. If Portugal would get attacked a lot of Spaniards would go fight for Portugal voluntarily because of shared history and culture. But if Bulgaria would get attacked, most Spaniards wouldn't volunteer to go die for Bulgaria, even though they're both EU members.

Austria kept torpedoing Romania's Schengen entry just to extract some monetary concession, not exactly something friends do. So if Austria were to hypothetically get attacked tomorrow, a lot of Romanians would cheer rather than want to go help since karma is a bitch. These kinds of petty squabbles are the norm in the EU.

People aren't gonna want to die or sacrifice themselves for the EU flag since it's an artificial construct, kind of like the corporation they work for, not something they feel a sense of belonging and allegiance to like a specific group of people.

[mmooss]

The lowest common denominator, racial ("shared blood", "tribal", and also "culture" in this context) perspective is exceeded time and again, and the ones that do exceed it are the most free, most prosperous, and most powerful - NATO being a clear example, but also all the Pacific alliances around China. The poorest and least safe are the ones that follow your advice, places like Somalia. Or look at the US and NATO ten years ago compared to today.

Most countries can be subdivided seemingly infinitely into groups that could find reasons to fight each other. But humans have other common 'denominators', much higher than that. Spain, the UK, the US, France, China, and many others are unions of subcultures.

You can see so much better in the world. Instead of insisting that evil is inevitable - making you a victim of it - you can work for good. Our ancestors have had great success and made it easy for us to follow.

[joe_mamba]

>the ones that do exceed it are the most free, most prosperous, and most powerful - NATO being a clear example

You're beating it around the bush. Tell me how many Spaniard would voluntarily sign up to die to defend Bulgaria if shit were to hit the fan.

THat's how you measure if strength of alliances stand the test of time, or if they're just worthless pieces of paper from a bygone era of peace and prosperity wrapped up in fake nationalism under a made up flag.

> Or look at the US and NATO ten years ago compared to today.

10 years ago a lot more people in US and NATO countries could more easily afford a house and get a decent paying job with a higher purchasing power. What were you trying to prove with this?