[lopatin]

The problem with React is that it solved frontend.

So the options are to 1. Code React all day and be happy with it. 2. Come up with reasons why it's bad.

There are many talented and intellectually curious people in the field which lean towards 2.

[gmac]

The problem with React IMHO is it’s so dominant and so annoyingly over-engineered for many problems. I use Mithril and find it much less fuss.

[docmars]

When they started adding new hooks just to work around their own broken component/rendering lifecycle, I knew React was doomed to become a bloated mess.

Nobody in their right mind is remembering to use `useDeferredValue` or `useEffectEvent` for their very niche uses.

These are a direct result of React's poor component lifecycle design. Compare to Vue's granular lifecycle hooks which give you all the control you need without workarounds, and they're named in a way that make sense. [1]

And don't get me started on React's sad excuse for global state management with Contexts. A performance nightmare full of entire tree rerenders on every state change, even if components aren't subscribing to that state. Want subscriptions? Gotta hand-roll everything or use a 3rd party state library which don't support initialization before your components render if your global state depends on other state/data in React-land.

1. https://vuejs.org/api/composition-api-lifecycle.html

[Capricorn2481]

I'm all for people avoiding React if they want, but I do want to respond to some of this, as someone who has made a few React apps for work.

> When they started adding new hooks just to work around their own broken component/rendering lifecycle, I knew React was doomed to become a bloated mess.

Hooks didn't fundamentally change anything. They are ways to escape the render loop, which class components already had.

> Nobody in their right mind is remembering to use `useDeferredValue` or `useEffectEvent` for their very niche uses.

Maybe because you don't necessarily need to. But for what it's worth, I'm on old versions of React when these weren't things, and I've built entire SPAs out without them at work. But reading their docs, they seem fine?

> And don't get me started on React's sad excuse for global state management with Contexts. A performance nightmare full of entire tree rerenders on every state change

I think it's good to give context on what a rerender is. It's not the same as repainting the DOM, or even in the same order of magnitude of CPU cycles. Your entire site could rerender from a text input, but you're unlikely to notice it even with 10x CPU slowdown in Devtools, unless you put something expensive in the render cycle for no reason. Indeed, I've seen people do a fetch request every time a text input changes. Meanwhile, if I do the same slowdown on Apple Music which is made in Svelte, it practically crashes.

But pretty much any other state management library will work the way you've described you want.

[docmars]

My issue with React Context is you can only assign initial state through the `value` prop on the provider if you need that initial state to be derived from other hook state/data, which requires yet another wrapper component to pull those in.

Even if you make a `createProvider` factory to initialize a `useMyContext` hook, it still requires what I mentioned above.

Compare this to Vue's Pinia library where you can simply create a global (setup) hook that allows you to bring in other hooks and dependencies, and return the final, global state. Then when you use it, it points to a global instance instead of creating unique instances for each hook used.

Example (React cannot do this, not without enormous boilerplate and TypeScript spaghetti -- good luck!):

  export const useMyStore = defineStore("myStore", () => {
    const numericState = ref(0);
    const computedState = computed(() => reactiveState.value * 2);
    const numberFromAnotherHook = useAnotherHook();
    
    const { data, error, loading } = useFetch(...);

    const derivedAsyncState = computed(() => {
      return data.value + numericState.value + numberFromAnotherHook.value;
    });

    return {
      numericState,
      computedState,
      numberFromAnotherHook,
      derivedAsyncState,
    }
  });

This is remarkably easy, and the best part is: I don't have to wrap my components with another <Context.Provider> component. I can... just use the hook! I sorely wish React offered a better way to wire up global or shared state like this. React doesn't even have a plugin system that would allow someone to port Pinia over to React. It's baffling.

Every other 3rd party state management library has to use React Context to initialize store data based on other React-based state/data. Without Context, you must wait for a full render cycle and assign the state using `useEffect`, causing your components to flash or delay rendering before the store's ready.

[cyberax]

You can use Tanstack Query or Zustand for this in React. They essentially have a global state, and you can attach reactive "views" to it. They also provide ways to delay rendering until you have the data ready.

Your example would look like:

  const id = useState(...);
  const numericState = useState(0);
  
  const q = useQuery({
      queryFn: async (context) => {
        const data = await fetch(..., {signal: context.signal});
        const derivedState = numericState + data.something;
        return `This is it ${derivedState}`;
      },
      queryKey: ["someState", id],
    }, [id, numericState]);
  ...

  if (q.isLoading) {
    return <div>loading...</div>;
  }

  return <div>{q.data}</div>;

It'll handle cancellation if your state changes while the query is being evaluated, you can add deferred rendering, and so on. You can even hook it into Suspense and have "transparent" handling of in-progress queries.

The downside is that mutations also need to be handled by these libraries, so it essentially becomes isomorphic to Solid's signals.

[docmars]

I've used React Query and Zustand extensively in my projects, and unfortunately Zustand suffers from the same issue in cases where you aren't dealing with async data. I'm talking about React state + data that's already available, but can't be used to initialize your store before the first render cycle.

Here's how Zustand gets around this, and lo-and-behold: it requires React Context :( [1] (Look at how much boilerplate is required!)

React Query at least gives you an `initialData` option [2] to populate the cache before anything is done, and it works similarly to `useState`'s initializer. The key nuance with `const [state, setState] = useState(myInitialValue)` is the initial value is set on `state` before anything renders, so you don't need to wait while the component flashes `null` or a loading state. Whatever you need it to be is there immediately, helping UIs feel faster. It's a minor detail, but it makes a big difference when you're working with more complex dependencies.

1. https://zustand.docs.pmnd.rs/guides/initialize-state-with-pr...

2. https://tanstack.com/query/v5/docs/framework/react/guides/in...

---

I guess I could abuse React Query like this...

  function useGlobalStore() {
    const myHookState = useMyHook(); // not async

    return useQuery({
      initialData: {
        optionA: true,
        optionB: myHookState,
      }
    });
  }

And you'd have to use `queryClient` to mutate the state locally since we aren't dealing with server data here.

But here's what I really want from the React team...

  // Hook uses global instance instead of creating a new one each time it's used. No React Context boilerplate or ceremony. No wrapping components with more messy JSX. I can set state using React's primitives instead of messing with a 3rd party store:

  const useGlobalStore = createGlobalStore(() => {
    const dataFromAnotherHook = useAnotherHook();

    const [settings, setSettings] = useState({
      optionA: true,
      optionB: dataFromAnotherHook,
    });

    return {
      settings,
      setSettings,
    }
  });

[cyberax]

How exactly is Vue better? It just introduces more artificial states, as far as I see.

My major problem with React is the way it interacts with async processes, but that's because async processes are inherently tricky to model. Suspense helps, but I don't like it. I very much feel that the intermediate states should be explicit.

[docmars]

I think it's a matter of taste and preference mostly, but I like Vue's overall design better. It uses JS Proxies to handle reactive state (signals, basically) on a granular level, so entire component functions don't need to be run on every single render — only what's needed. This is reflected in benchmarks comparing UI libraries, especially when looking at table row rendering performance.

Their setup (component) functions are a staging ground for wiring up their primitives without you having to worry about how often each call is being made in your component function. Vue 3's composition pattern was inspired by React with hooks, with the exception that variables aren't computed on every render.

And I agree about Suspense, it's a confusing API because it's yet-another-way React forces you to nest your app / component structure even further, which creates indirection and makes it harder to tie things together logically so they're easier to reason about. The "oops, I forgot this was wrapped with X or Y" problem persists if a stray wrapper lives outside of the component you're working on.

I prefer using switch statements or internal component logic to assign the desired state to a variable, and then rendering it within the component's wrapper elements -- states like: loading, error, empty, and default -- all in the same component depending on my async status.

[cyberax]

I tried proxy-based approaches before (in Solid) and I _also_ had a lot of problems with async processes. The "transparent" proxies are not really transparent.

I understand that mixing declarative UI with the harsh imperative world is always problematic, but I think I prefer React's approach of "no spooky action at a distance".

As for speed, I didn't find any real difference between frameworks when they are used correctly. React can handle several thousand visible elements just fine, and if you have more, you probably should work on reducing that or providing optimized diffing.

For example, we're using React for 3D reactive scenes with tens of thousands of visible elements. We do that by hooking into low-level diffing (the design was inspired by ThreeJS), and it works acceptably well on React.Native that uses interpreted JS.

[docmars]

I'm with you there -- I use React more than Vue day-to-day since most companies reach for it before anything else, so it's ubiquitous. Most devs simply don't have a choice unless they're lucky enough to be in the driver seat of a greenfield project.

I find React perfectly acceptable, it's just global state management and a few flaws with its lifecycle that repeatedly haunt me from time to time. (see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46683809)

Vue's downside is not being able to store off template fragments in variables. Every template/component must be a separate component file (or a registered component somewhere in the tree), so the ease of passing around HTML/JSX conditionally with variables is impossible in Vue. You can use raw render functions, but who wants to write those?

JSX being a first-class citizen is where React really shines.

[docmars]

I forgot to mention in my other reply, but if you find yourself needing to render a massive list performantly, check out TanStack Virtual. It's a godsend!

[leptons]

I use Preact, in the old-school way, without any "use-whatever" that React introduced. I like it that way. It's simple, it's very easy, and I get things done quickly without over-thinking it.

[spartanatreyu]

It didn't solve frontend, it sold developers one lie (i.e. ui = f(state) ) and managers another (developers are interchangeable gears).

Problems are only truly solved by the folks who dedicate themselves to understanding the problem, that is: the folks working on web standards and the other folks implementing them.

[insin]

> Problems are only truly solved by the folks who dedicate themselves to understanding the problem, that is: the folks working on web standards and the other folks implementing them.

It kills me to think of how amazing Web Components could be if those folks had started standardising them _now_ instead of in "competition" with userland component libraries of the time (while punting on many of the essential challenges of developing UI in the DOM those libraries were still evolving solutions for), and introduced more problems entirely of their own making.

[kulahan]

Too bad the problems getting solved aren't the problems that need solving. Maybe this is one of the reasons software development is such a joke of a profession.