[kimixa]

That happened to me when I had an ipad in a standing case and the seat in front cranked back - trapping then pinging the tablet across me and by neighbour's lap.

Though the ipad itself wasn't damaged, a couple of glasses didn't make it, and required the steward to try to brush up whatever fragments of glass they could.

I feel that airlines are a microcosm of "Do you care about who you actions might affect?" - similar to the "Do you return the cart to the corral" test at supermarkets - are you willing to put even the smallest bit of effort to significantly improve other people's experiences?

[vasco]

Airlines shouldn't have reclining seats, it's bad design. Blaming people for the bad design is stupid. I never recline and still blame it on the design. Stupid people exist, you should design for that.

[sp8]

Sorry for an empty response but this, 100% this. As a person who is WELL over 6' tall, the very idea that the person in front of me might recline is enough to give me significant anxiety throughout a flight. I once saw a design for seats where the base slides forward if you want to recline - the idea being, if you're going to recline you're going to do so into your own space, not the person behind you. I'd be a big advocate of that change in seat design...

[lostlogin]

I’m a shade under 2m tall.

If I put my knees together and sit up straight (back hard against my seat), my knees are hard against the seat in front. They can’t recline. It doesn’t even hurt, the seat just won’t move. Last flight someone turned around and complained then complained to the stewardess. I’m not sticking my legs into my neighbours space, am the time I extended into the aisle I fell asleep and got knee capped by a trolley.

‘Where would you like me to put my legs?’

I’m writing this from a plane seat, having paid for extra room and having been bumped by the airline. That’s nz$1000 gone and 17 hours of misery.

Qatar. Never again.

Aside: I also don’t recline without any empty seat or sleeping person behind.

[Ajedi32]

I'm also over 6' and I don't understand the problem? The seats only recline a few degrees, it's not like they're laying on my lap! Even fully reclined there's plenty of space in front of my face, and leg room is barely impacted at all. (Like probably an inch max?)

Granted, I've only flown American and Delta, maybe other airlines are worse in this respect?

[Delphiki]

I'm 6'4" with a lot of my height in my legs. Sitting comfortably (not slouching, mind you), my knees already barely rub against the seat in front of me. As soon as that seat is reclined, my knees get crushed and I have to either sit up even straighter or twist to the side, neither of which are comfortable. Or, I have to pay to be in a higher fare class with more space.

[dylan604]

Have you tried the exit row instead? Sure, you might have to agree to help others, but if you aren't willing to do that regardless of the row, then that just says a lot about you.

[Delphiki]

Yepp, I generally will try for the exit row or the first row in a section (sacrificing no under seat storage), but they tend to be the first seats booked. Since I'm usually traveling with multiple other people and we prefer sitting together, it makes it pretty difficult to reliably select those seats with extra leg room. I haven't seen any airlines that charge "+$25 for the extra leg room" on 12+ hour international flights, but if they exist I'd love to know which ones they are!

[amalcon]

The physical requirements are an issue for a lot of people. E.g. a tall senior citizen, anyone flying with a small child, anyone with a visible disability (temporary or otherwise).

[Ajedi32]

Many airlines don't let you choose your seat without paying extra. But yeah, maybe if you're that tall that's just an unfortunate extra cost you have to bear.

[lostlogin]

They charge do these seats.

And if anyone is finding they have to help out in emergency seats on the regular, please tell us which airline.

[amalcon]

Those few degrees matter if your knees are already brushing the back of the seat in front of you. It matters how tall you are, how much of that is in your legs, how big your feet are (the more you need to bend your knees, the higher they will be), and it also varies depending on seat design and layout.

For others like me, one trick is to at most minimally use the under seat storage: small handbags only. No backpacks, briefcases, or anything else big enough to hold a laptop. Then, you can put your feet in that space. This lowers my knees by 1-2 inches depending on the plane, which really matters. It's the only thing that helps significantly, aside from paying for premium economy. Doesn't help with the claustrophobia, but there's not much to be done about that.

The other things I've tried (that don't reliably work) are leaning forward from the seat back (to pull my knees back) and slouching slightly (so that the inevitable recline compresses the seat back into my knees rather than bashing them). The former saves my knees, but sacrifices my back. The latter kind of helps during the flight, but walking will still hurt the next day.

[Ajedi32]

> one trick is to at most minimally use the under seat storage [...] Then, you can put your feet in that space

Oh, interesting. I've always done that, it never really occurred to me that others might not. Even if you have a bigger bag you can always take it out during the flight to make space for your feet. That, plus crossing my legs allows me to have my legs flat against the chair (and therefore my knees well below the level where the person in front reclining would make much difference).

[amalcon]

Well, it can be annoying to limit oneself to a smaller under-seat bag. Taking the bigger bag out during the flight uses up even more of the available space. I've generally got nowhere to put it except behind my legs (which cramps things a lot): on my lap doesn't work if I want to actually use anything in that bag.

It's easier to just pack my laptop (plus anything I might use during the flight) in my overhead bin carry-on. It's a real pain to actually get anything out of there, but a paperback book or ebook reader will fit in a coat pocket or small handbag -- and that's all I truly need on the plane. Plus, the airline won't be able to force you to check your overhead carry-on that way since the laptop has lithium batteries in it.

[kaffekaka]

6ft plus too, I agree with GP, definitely a problem for me when the seat in front reclines.

My legs are proportionately longer than my upper body which increases the negative effect.

[Ajedi32]

Why does leg length matter? Reclining doesn't impact leg room much since only the upper part of the seat is moving backwards any significant distance, and the space under the seat where my feet go is completely unaffected.

Are your legs so long you have to sit with your knees pressed against the back of the seat in front of you or something? If so I suppose that's understandable.

[royskee]

"Are your legs so long you have to sit with your knees pressed against the back of the seat in front of you or something? If so I suppose that's understandable."

Yes and also for people with long legs, seated in a typical airline seat, their knees will be significantly higher than the top of the seat cushion. So, they get caught up in the sweep of a reclining seatback ahead.

[83]

My legs are long enough there isn't room for them to press against the back of the seat. I'm either manspreading into the crevases between seats or in foetal position with my knees halfway up the seat in front of me. A person reclining is excruciating in the former, but in the latter position at least the person in front can't recline as there's no physical space for my body to become more compact. Flying is hell.

[kaffekaka]

Yes, my knees often/always bump into the seat in front of me, even without it being reclined. If/when it is reclined it means my knees are pressed harder backwards.

When I can, I pay for extra leg room or get an aisle seat.

My opinion is strongly that seats should not be reclined. It is inconsiderate.

[lostlogin]

> Are your legs so long you have to sit with your knees pressed against the back of the seat in front of you or something?

Not OP. Yes.

[paranoidrobot]

good news: that seat design is available and some airlines use it.

[dylan604]

> some airlines use it.

and there lies the rub.

[CalRobert]

Flights from sfo to Frankfurt bolt upright sound unpleasant…

Not to mention that when my wife was pregnant she could barely manage her back pain -with- the recline, never mind without.

The recline button is there for your use. You are welcome to avail of it yourself.

[oneeyedpigeon]

> You are welcome to avail of it yourself.

Ah, the exact opposite of the "pay it forward" principle...

[srmarm]

That's exactly how it usually happens in my experience. I think a lot of people are OK if everyones upright on short haul flights (here most budget airlines don't have a recline facility and it's not missed) but once someone reclines into your space you then recline to gain a little space back and the domino effect takes place even if you're not sleeping.

[gambiting]

And then the person in the last row is screwed because they are in a seat that doesn't recline but the seat in front of them does, so they have to sit like a canned sardine for the entire flight(ask me how I know).

[lostlogin]

> Flights from sfo to Frankfurt bolt upright sound unpleasant

Medium haul flights sound like a dream to us slumming down the bottom of the planet.

At least we have Elon giving us decent wifi now. Doha > Auckland at the moment.

[close04]

> Flights from sfo to Frankfurt bolt upright sound unpleasant

Same flight with someone's seat resting on your knees is downright painful.

> when my wife was pregnant

Imagine if she was a bit taller and someone reclined the seat all the way over her.

> The recline button is there for your use

You're right, like any shared resource, "space" is there for you to use. It doesn't mean you have to use it, you could try to be aware of your surroundings and assess whether your small comfort should come at the cost of someone else's extreme discomfort. And if you use the button others are also free, and probably correct, to call you a dick. Like a guy who empties the bowl of complimentary candy someone offers to all customers.

You shouldn't need physical blocks or laws to define your own common sense and decency.

[ahtihn]

I'm 185cm and I couldn't imagine having to endure a long haul flight without reclining.

I never get these discussions. It's only ever online that I see complaints. Almost everyone reclines on long flights. It's normal. It's expected. If it makes you uncomfortable that's a you problem, everyone else seems fine with it. If it makes you physically uncomfortable, pay for extra leg room. Don't make your problem the problem of another passenger.

[close04]

> I never get these discussions. It's only ever online that I see complaints. everyone else seems fine with it

That's a skewed conclusion you're drawing. Are you really surprised that people aren't willing to risk escalating the situation on a plane, arguing with what's likely the very inconsiderate person in front of them? Most people have an aversion to conflict. It doesn't mean "they're fine with it". You probably don’t advertise in real life how much you lean back and not care who’s behind you out of fear that people will change your opinion of you. Real life is a harsh mistress.

I've bumped into people and they said "sorry", do you think they wanted me to bump into them, liked it, and actually believed it was their mistake? No, I just tower at close to 2m so they didn't want to escalate the situation.

P.S. I always look at who sits behind me, if they're "space constrained" or not, and almost always ask if I can recline. Sometimes I don't bother, clearly the person will suffer. Sometimes they said "I'd rather not, thank you". Many times they said "fine". I used to fly a lot and my experience was very clearly not that "everyone is fine". I was never fine even if I didn't start arguing. So how would you have known?

[ahtihn]

I've literally never been on a 5+ hour flight where anyone in the row in front of me didn't recline at some point.

I've discussed this with various people IRL. No one, including taller people than me, ever complained about people being inconsiderate for reclining. Every tall person complains about leg room.

The vast majority of people do not think it's inconsiderate to recline. They think it's normal and that the function is there for a reason.

I actually think it's inconsiderate to complain to the person in front if they want to recline. The only time that is acceptable is when meals are served.

[Delphiki]

Anecdotal, but I'm 193cm, take a few 12+ hour flights per year, and have no problem not reclining. For what it's worth, I feel like I've experienced people on my shorter, domestic flights reclining their seats more often than on my longer, international flights.

[dylan604]

> I never get these discussions.

Nor I. TFA is about a chess bot, yet here we are discussing seat reclining etiquette.

[lostlogin]

You’ve been here before right?

At least we aren’t discussing ad blockers for the 18th time this week.

[bjourne]

You're tall so you can't sit upright? :P Do you need to lean backwards when you work too? I think you are wrong and a lot of people are not fine with it. I don't need a closeup view of someone's bald spot while trying to eat shitty airplane food.

[CalRobert]

So why is the recline button there?

[close04]

Mainly because they were introduced when the seats were set farther apart. Now companies squeeze more rows and keep the same seats.

But also because with any shared resource there's an expectation of decency involved. Some people just betray that expectation. They're the ones with the mentality that "they shouldn't have served alcohol if they didn't want me to get insufferably drunk", "they shouldn't have put the candy out if they didn't want me to take all of it", "why is the swing there in the park if not for my kids to use them continuously to the disappointment of other kids".

When your wife was pregnant someone probably let her go ahead in a queue, have her some priority for something, etc. That was a person with common sense and decency, not asking "why do queues exist", who doesn't do something only if there's a law about it.

[notnaut]

I’m several inches over 6’ and if I don’t get a fire exit seat I’m highly likely to get seated behind someone who will call me “extremely rude” for wrangling uncomfortably and bumping their seat uncontrollably when they inevitably decide that extra 6 degrees of recline is worth more than my knee cartilage.

[CalRobert]

People generally didn’t even offer her a seat on the metro. And letting other people decide whether you should be permitted to use the functionality the airline has given you is dysfunctional people pleasing.

[buran77]

I still see ashtrays on older plans, trains, and boats. Sometimes older stuff is left there because it's not financially advantageous to replace it. You can use the recline button to your liking, but it can be inconsiderate to do it. Traveler discretion is advised.

A question you can always ask yourself is "should I do it just because I can do it?". It will stop you from being needlessly inconsiderate many times, and maybe even make you a better person.

[123pie123]

in reality there should be a legal minimum leg room that's based on the distance of the flight

the recline feature should be baked in to this as well

[varjag]

It's the 21st century. Blowhards of the world united with the miracle of technology are moaning at any attempt of common sense regulation. This will become culture wars material right away.

[lostlogin]

They would argue that the market would solve the issue.

[nostromo]

I think reclining is appropriate at night only. If it were up to me, they would be locked upright during the day.

[DaanDL]

Night or day is a vague concept on an 11 hour flight

[baxtr]

It wouldn't surprise me if Ryanair had reclining seats that reclined only if you paid for it.

[iainmerrick]

I think the secret of Ryanair is that their goal is actually to make their turnarounds as fast and efficient as possible, not explicitly to make money by adding a fee for every little aspect of the service.

If anything can possibly slow down flight boarding, disembarking or cleanup, they'll first try to remove it completely, and only if people object too much will they reluctantly offer it with a fee.

Pocket on the seat back -> most people don't use on short flights -> get rid of them.

Luggage -> most people need this, but not everyone -> charge a fee.

Reclining seat -> most people don't use on short flights -> get rid of them.

They do sell drinks and duty free; that's an interesting one. I guess once the flight is airborne, the flight attendants aren't really doing anything else (from management's perspective) so they might as well sell stuff. Plus the trolley blocking the aisle stops passengers from moving around, which they probably see as a big advantage.

I think this even applies to the ridiculous penalty fees they charge for e.g. trying to check in at the airport rather than doing it beforehand on the app. It feels like they're just trying to rip you off, but I suspect they see it more as a "nudge" to make people check in online, because that streamlines their airport process.

I got a little bit less annoyed by them when I realised this. Sure, it's still uncomfortable and sometimes infuriating, but it's all with the aim of an efficient and reliable service, and they're way better than average at that.

[varjag]

> It feels like they're just trying to rip you off, but I suspect they see it more as a "nudge" to make people check in online, because that streamlines their airport process.

I believe the airline pays the airport for every check in and luggage handling transaction. They are just cutting costs.

[KolmogorovComp]

That's not (really) it.

Ryanair makes little to no money from passengers, nowadays it's mainly from selling airplanes. They were still profitable during COVID without even carrying passengers at some point, only thanks to their flying school, which thanks to social dumping and the UE, allow them to charge 40k€ per wannabe pilot without even guaranteeing them a hire.

They booked 2000 737max, with their own special version during COVID+MCAS disaster, they paid it dirt cheap.

Then they operate them marginally, and now that the traffic has gone up again and the delay between buying and receiving a Max is about 8 years, they sell them back for a huge profit.

It's been known for ages in the industry.

[iainmerrick]

Do you have a link for that? It sounds interesting but a bit unlikely. It's hard to see how charging for pilot training, even at 40K a pop, would be a sustainable business.

The thing about buying planes is also interesting, but sounds like a sneaky business move rather than the actual foundation of the business.

I've always heard that nobody really makes money from passengers, which is why airlines are always going bankrupt, and I'm sure Ryanair's margins are super skinny. But even so, it does seem like moving passengers around is the core of their business, rather than it just being a front for something else.

[short_sells_poo]

I never thought of it this way, but now it's clear.

I found that once I tack on luggage, a seat with more space, etc.. they become more expensive than traditional airlines with the same package.

In other words, their business model really seems to be to cater to the "least hassle" passengers who travel light and don't need any extras.

[baxtr]

Great analysis and insight! Thanks for sharing

[foota]

"Your neighbor is trying to recline, outbid them to stop them..."

[rrr_oh_man]

One verification can to you, sir, for this chuckle.

[foota]

Thank you sir for the one shiny object.

[darkwater]

Don't give them ideas!

[lostlogin]

Shhh. BMW might hear.

[rsynnott]

Ryanair doesn't have reclining seats at all.

[baxtr]

Which means they haven’t found a way to monetize the feature yet!

[buran77]

Reclining seats are more expensive and heavier. The target customer for a low cost flight is cost sensitive and more resistant to "punishment". The expense would be hard to recuperate.

[rsynnott]

This is one thing I like about Ryanair; they don't.

[dec0dedab0de]

I think that they should just make reclining mandatory

[spydr]

> do you care about who your actions might affect

This one surprises me every time I fly. When I have the aisle seat I can be up and out in 10 seconds. It seems to make like everyone else will plop down , place down 3 different liquids on the tray and then take a nap. When I ask to use the bathroom I end up feeling like a nuisance

[mywittyname]

> When I ask to use the bathroom I end up feeling like a nuisance

It's your right to ask to use the bathroom whenever you need. And others have the right to use that little tray for their stuff when they want. (while allowed by the airline, of course)

[dewey]

You are describing exactly that phenomenon. Of course it's your "right" to do that technically, but is it a nuisance to others? Yes.

Just like smoking next to others (when allowed), or reclining your seat 100% in economy. Technically it's your right to just that.

[lostlogin]

People asserting their rights is a significant portion of the reason half the population seems angry.

[TeMPOraL]

The old problem of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

[Zambyte]

Tactfully ambiguous as to which half you think is asserting their rights and which half you think is angry.

[lostlogin]

Ha! Wasn’t intentional but also, I’m not sure.

[kimixa]

Yup, it's their right, as it's their right to crank their seat back. Both are available, and expected. I see some take issue with people doing them at all, but I don't really mind much. Might be related to being 180cm or so - about 5"11, when most complaining seem to be larger.

My issue on my original post isn't really them moving the seat, but the lack of notice. It would have taken barely a second to lean over the seat and let me know. But I suspect they didn't even think about how that might affect anyone else.

It would be kinda crazy if someone didn't say they wanted to get out to the aisle and just started trying to climb over you with no warning.

[hamdingers]

Selecting the aisle seat is consenting to be asked to get up, so don't feel bad for asking.

That said, 10 seconds is not a realistic expectation. Ask before it's an emergency.

[haritha-j]

I actually quite liek yanair's no frills no recline design. For some reason it feels less clusterphobic to me. it just feels more spacious and roomy, despite the absence of space.

[VTimofeenko]

And if you are the airline the answer is a resounding "no"

[nebula8804]

The airline is not a human being. It is an imaginary construct.

[Dylan16807]

And yet it still gets to participate and answer the question in the worst way.

[nebula8804]

Only in some messed up parts of the world.

[Dylan16807]

Airlines pick out what seats they want and how to space them in most of the world, don't they?

That's the root cause of the suffering here. The actions with the strongest ill effects.