[antennafirepla]

For not much prior research, he sure has done a lot of prior research to even know about desktop environments or bootloaders compared to your average windows user. This article read like every other promising Linux is user friendly and easy, then proceeding with the author fixing issues the average user wouldn’t be able to even diagnose.

I think anyone technically savvy enough to follow the article is already aware Linux is a viable primary OS, the question is can you manage it without having to become a Linux nerd? I want to be able to tell normal people they can use Linux.

[mkozlows]

What's funny is, the author is only having these questions because they chose a wacky Arch-based ultra-techie distro that I'd never even heard of.

If they'd just installed normal Ubuntu or Fedora, they wouldn't even know what a bootloader was, and they'd just use whatever desktop environment (probably GNOME, maybe KDE) came with it.

[yoyohello13]

For real. I should write a blog post about my expierience but it would only be like 2 sentences. "Hey! I switched to Linux. I bought a desktop from System76 and it all just worked."

[distances]

It's a newcomer, but in ProtonDB data CachyOS is now the second most popular distro after Arch: https://boilingsteam.com/now-cachy-os-is-eating-arch-linux-l...

Fedora is 4th, Ubuntu is 5th.

[emporas]

I use Linux exclusively for almost 20 years. I can tackle any tinkering of almost anything in a Linux environment, alongside of heavy use of Vim and Emacs.

Nowadays every time I want to run a non-trivial command of a program, configure a file somewhere, customize using code Emacs or anything else, I always put the LLMs to do it. I do almost nothing by myself, except check if said file is indeed there, open the file and copy paste the new configuration, restart the program, copy paste code here and there and so on.

No need to be a nerd to use Linux, that's so 2021. LLMs are the ultimate nerds when it comes to digging into manuals, scour the internet and github for workarounds, or tips and tricks and so on.

[subjectsigma]

99% of people who don’t work in tech want to configure their computer by clicking buttons and menus, not by running terminal commands or asking ChatGPT.

[emporas]

Not true. They want to talk to their secretary, and the secretary do it for them.

Go around, and ask people if they want a free secretary, see if someone doesn't want one.

They will not ask a computer program to do stuff. They will talk to the secretary, and the secretary will do any computer stuff necessary. For the moment the secretary cannot click buttons and menus as well as manipulate language. The secretary will have realistic skin and lips, and a dress as short as required by the job description.

Language AI is the king of AIs, and the gap will only get bigger. Everything will be tied to language going forward, driving, surgeries and so on.

[DANmode]

They don’t even want to do that.

[freedomben]

If you get someone to help you with the installation, or buy a pre-installed Linux, then yes I believe this to be true. I only have anecdotal evidence, but I have my dad who is very non-tech savvy who after about a day with gnome actually said it's the first desktop environment that he liked more than Windows 95. There has been one time in 5 years that he had to reach out for technical assistance. It turned out that he had been misled by a prompt to buy Ubuntu pro and had gotten into a weird state. I blame that one solely on canonical, not on Linux in general. After that I switched him to Fedora, and he's been running that now for a few years and didn't even realize I had changed his underlying OS. He is able to install anything he wants from the graphical storefront, and same with updates. In the early days we did have some trouble getting his printer to work, though once we switched him to Fedora everything on that printer worked out of the box. When my sister came over to his house with her MacBook, she had to mess with the Mac to get the printer working for over an hour, and it was still pretty hit or miss. It would lose half the jobs she tried to send to it. It truly is remarkable how usable Linux is for the average person now. For people that have to run software that only runs on Windows or Linux, excluding games of course since steam and other game managers handle those wonderfully now, there is definitely still a bit of pain. But for people who can get by with cloud-based or Linux friendly software, it's really quite good.

[philistine]

Printers. It always haunts us. I have exclusively bought Brother for home and work for close to two decades at this point because they follow CUPS standards requiring no fidgeting, and their modern offerings all have AirPrint, which eliminates the need for drivers. It's 2026, and the normies still think you cannot print from your phone because printers suck so much.

[ipsi]

Even then - I have a reasonably nice Brother Printer/Scanner/etc device, and I could never get AirPrint to reliably work until I switched over to using Ethernet instead of Wi-Fi. Something to do with it going to sleep and not broadcasting the necessary mDNS stuff, IIRC. I couldn't find any combination of settings in the printer to make it happy, and since it's now right next to a switch, it's not really worth the effort of digging any further.

[bee_rider]

Hey, we should be thankful that printers suck. Wasn’t this whole journey kicked off by Stallman getting frustrated with printer drivers?

[philistine]

We have GNU already. We can fix printers!

[rav3ndust]

> but I have my dad who is very non-tech savvy who after about a day with gnome actually said it's the first desktop environment that he liked more than Windows 95.

more anecdotes, but I had the same experience with getting my mother in law on Linux. she is 75, and hadn't used a computer since her old job, and she used Windows XP, i believe she said, there. a couple of years ago, she wanted a bigger screen device to use for her internetting since her eyesight isn't what it used to be (her primary computing device was always her Android phone otherwise). my wife and I got her a thinkpad t440p, set her up with Debian GNOME, showed her how to use the Software Centre and install her stuff and update the machine, and off she went. haven't had a call to fix anything at all. she says she likes the experience better than the computers she remembers using at work running Windows.

[jethro_tell]

My sister was the same, she brought her machine over, I booted a Ubuntu disk and did the disk config in the install and then she set the rest of the stuff up and I haven’t heard from her about it for 5 years, other than that I check if she’s still using it now and again.

[einpoklum]

> after about a day with gnome actually said it's the first desktop environment that he liked more than Windows 95.

You have to choose that?

I'm a long-time Linux user, and I don't like GNOME better as a desktop environment. I'll take a Windows 95-like desktop UI over GNOME any day of the week...

[barbs]

My Dad managed to install linux (Q4OS) on his computer in a dual-boot setup, having never even touched Linux before. He hasn't asked me for help once, whereas historically I've been his tech support when he was running Windows. He's loving the linux experience.

I believe if my Dad is able to install, use and benefit from Linux, anyone can.

[jama211]

On the other hand I recently did another dual boot system and despite having done it 100 times I accidentally destroyed the windows install by assuming it was efi when it wasn’t and overwriting the windows boot record which was at the end of the hard drive when making space for Linux, and it became permanently unbootable and ultimately had to be reinstalled. If an experienced user can make a terrible mistake so easily during the standard setup wizard that did it with a smile, than anyone can.

[xerox13ster]

*GASP* OH NO THEY MIGHT LEARN A SKILL!!!!

Snark aside, I really really don’t understand the aversion, even within the tech community, to learning new skills especially as it pertains to Linux.

Would having new knowledge be such a burden? Why is it something to avoid? Why is it not a good thing if normal people learn more about computing?

Do we want a population of iPad baby Linux users? Normal people can use it now, don’t gate keep.

We have people going “I don’t have to read, I could just have the AI do it for me” and pretty soon they’re not gonna be able to think. People don’t want to think or learn because we have such a cultural aversion to being a nerd. Nerd is not a bad thing.

[retsibsi]

Partly, the issue isn't "they would have to learn about Linux, and that's bad", it's "they would have to learn about Linux, and they wouldn't want do that, and so they would get frustrated and quite likely give up on it, and my recommendation would have been a waste of their time".

The other part is that they're not necessarily wrong not to want to learn about Linux! Learning is great, when it's something interesting or valuable. But if I'm not interested in the thing, and my time and mental resources are limited, and I have a good enough alternative, I think it's absolutely fine to avoid it.

Most of us choose to drive a car that just works, and take it to a mechanic when it doesn't, rather than buying one that requires and rewards tinkering. Maybe you're into cars, I don't know, but I bet you take this attitude to at least some of the useful objects in your life.

[otherme123]

> Most of us choose to drive a car that just works, and take it to a mechanic when it doesn't, rather than buying one that requires and rewards tinkering.

You can also bring your Linux machine to the mechanic. The only difference is that we linux users are also the mechanics.

My mother only wants a browser and a mail client, maybe a word processor from time to time. I installed Fedora, and the thing is still working after 5 years or so. I ssh into the thing once a month to do a "dnf update", she doesn't even notice. After initial setup, no more tinkering ever needed.

[whatevaa]

Because you maintain it for her.

[erikon]

Because although sometimes annoying, people already have a good alternative making the hours required to invest in something they're not interested in a very high price.

It's the same reason why as a software developer I use Visual Studio Code and don't plan to learn (neo)vim.

I (like many who'd have to learn Linux) have better things to do.

[xerox13ster]

You simply dismissed or forgot the learning you did to use Visual Studio Code.

Regardless of how much learning you did you still had to learn how to use it.

Just trying to short-circuit that logic and show you that it cuts both ways and that we should be willing to learn new tools.

[erikon]

That is true, but you can't deny the fact one tool has a significantly steeper learning curve. They are not the same.

[throwaway2046]

It should be a choice, not a requirement. With Windows you can get your work done without knowing much about Windows itself, but with Linux you're forced to understand every level of the entire OS so you can debug it first and then maybe get your work done. For an OS built around user freedom Linux sure doesn't give its users much choice on how to use it.

[simion314]

Windows is worse , just latest example: a USB WiFi antenna for the PC, on Linux it just works, on Windows you need either to buy a CD drive to install the drivers - not sure if your grandma can buy a cd drive, install it and install drivers. On Linux it just works.

People like buy a computer and use whatever is on it, they can't manage to install windows, the drivers needed for the hardware, I had to setup emails, or other online accounts for this kind of people so give them a preinstalled Linux and they should manage,.

[jama211]

You would never use the cd lol, it would auto install - and if it didn’t you’d download the drivers online though if it’s such a piece of junk as to need that then it’s a junk piece of hardware anyway.

[simion314]

>You would never use the cd lol, it would auto install - and if it didn’t you’d download the drivers online though if it’s such a piece of junk as to need that then it’s a junk piece of hardware anyway.

Sure, sure , so all hardware that does not autoinstall on Windows directly without a driver or internet is junk. AFAIK Windows can't install the correct nvidia or AMD drivers and you need to use special steps to prepare a windows install USB since the installer for some reason starts from the stick but doe's not have the drivers to complete the installation from the stick

[jama211]

Your knowledge needs to be updated then. The latest reinstall of windows I did detected my nvidia card and installed the proper nvidia drivers without me doing anything. I was surprised actually to see that but there you go.

[redeeman]

hardware that doesnt have builtin drivers to windows are a piece of junk? i think you'll find thats most hardware then

[leptons]

You are hilariously wrong. Seriously, what century are you living in? It's been a very long time since I had to install a specific driver for any piece of hardware on Windows, and I go through a lot of hardware. Every piece of hardware I had is automatically installed and configured without any hassle whatsoever.

[simion314]

not OC, as i mentioned in parallel thread, an USB witreless antena. The brand of the antena is not important, what is important is the chip used in it, since same chip is used by many brands , some chap no name brands or some well known brands use same chip and package it in a more expensive looking package.

In Windows it does not recognize it, so I pluged it in Linux and just worked directly, no need to scan for drivers or shit like that, so I run the "lsusb" command in Linux, found the chip ID , searched the internet for a Windows driver from Linux, put it on a USB stick and install it on Windows.

Also I am 100% sure that when I bought my desktop the box had CDs for everything from motherboard, sound, network and video card, I am remember for sure that if I would install the drivers in the wrong order in Windows the OS willb e confused and not detect my sound card)because some cofusion between the Realteck network and sound card I think)

Would be an interesting experiment to get N random PCs and N random non tech people and have them install Windows and Linux on them, have them setup the random hardware in the PC, setup a printer and scanner, connect the phone to it and download photos etc the Linux distro must be a distro targeted for normal people not the extreme dev/game/nerd targetd distros so IMO Kubuntu LTS would be a good choice.

[jama211]

You realise printers are NOTORIOUS for having horrifically bad Linux support, right? Linux would lose that battle 10 times out of 10. Manufacturers have a massive incentive for devices to plug and play on windows and they all basically do.

[redeeman]

no, you are wrong. Windows is able to install many drivers by downloading it for you, but we talked about bundled IN windows.

[leptons]

No, just no. Across dozens of machines with different hardware configurations, I've never had Windows download a driver. It just doesn't happen. But neither of us can provide any proof, so this comment thread isn't going to go anywhere.

[whatevaa]

Nowadays these things contain a hidden storage partition to install a driver.

[jama211]

Well said. There’s a lot of angry comments below but it’s all people who don’t want to deal with these hard truths.

[ErroneousBosh]

Linux is a lot more user-friendly than Windows, with generally useful error messages when things go wrong.

How do you fix Windows when it breaks every couple of weeks and the only information you get is a bright blue screen with a couple of lines of hexadecimal on it?

[jama211]

I don’t think you’ve used windows in 20 years by the sounds of it

[CamperBob2]

You run memtest86 to rule out a RAM issue, then check with your system reseller or mobo vendor for BIOS mitigations for the latest round of Intel CPU bugs. If you are able to rule out the RAM and CPU, try a different power supply. Failing that, the motherboard itself may be causing the issue.

Unfortunately there are few good ways to narrow down intermittent hardware failures (which is what you are experiencing) beyond these common steps.

[ErroneousBosh]

The same hardware works flawlessly running Linux.

[CamperBob2]

It works so far. That means nothing. Different memory areas, different patterns of bus access, hardware usage and CPU activity. And don't forget different hardware drivers, for that matter.

However much Windows 11 sucks, BsoDs are vanishingly unlikely to be caused by Windows itself. They haven't managed to degrade it to that extent. At least not yet.

[ErroneousBosh]

I would expect that kicking seven shades of shit out of it with video editing software would be harder work than just attempting to boot to a desktop.