[5d41402abc4b]

> The flip side is that their errata is lengthy

Just like security bugs, lengthy errata doesn't mean anything. A popular MCU will have bigger errata sheet because it gets more eyes on it.

>documentation from STM is poorly organized and spread out over a zillion different documents

The spreading out over multiple documents is good organization. You don't want to combine your datasheet, reference manual and appnotes into one.

[u8080]

> lengthy errata doesn't mean anything

In STM32G0 for example, there is "SPIv1" peripheral which has very critical implementation bugs which can get SPI to completely stuck until reset by RCC.

There is very brief mention in STM errata about this, I had to dig up forums and dance up with SWD around this.

[5d41402abc4b]

Which G0 part is this? Can you point me to one of these forum posts?

[u8080]

Sorry, I was digging on that too much time ago and haven't saved any links. AFAIR, there is permanent busy state in certain conditions when functioning in SPI slave mode, unablility to reset TXFIFO/RXFIFO and some edge case with DMA and TXE/BSY when DMA failed and you don't know how many bytes are in RxFIFO.

[inferiorhuman]

Someone's in the Embassy matrix channel currently trying to figure out why the SPI driver is preventing the USB peripheral from enumerating on their G0…

[inferiorhuman]

  Just like security bugs, lengthy errata doesn't mean anything. A popular
  MCU will have bigger errata sheet because it gets more eyes on it.

Yeah, no. From all outward appearances STM stuff is basically rushed to market, fix the bugs later. We're talking basic shit like xyz clock input or watchdog straight up doesn't work. More advanced stuff like one of their USB controllers straight up doesn't enumerate with ARM Macs — still not in the errata or marketing materials BTW although the workaround may end up beating you with some other bugs. Or the one family that they had to completely rework the USB peripheral while subtly changing the part numbers. Or yeah no.

> The spreading out over multiple documents is good organization.

No, it's really not. It's things like reading up on a peripheral in the reference manual and then trying to figure out which pins you can use with it. Some vendors will put that in the section with each peripheral, most will include a table within the RM, and STM splits it up into multiple documents — per variant within a family because the families are often loosely related.

None of this stuff is offered up in printed form, they could at least hyperlink it (whether intra- or inter- document).

It's not that surprising really. You've gotta cut costs somewhere.

[5d41402abc4b]

>rushed to market, fix the bugs later

I've yet to see a MCU vendor ship without bugs. At least with ST, the MCU is very cheap.

>USB controllers straight up doesn't enumerate with ARM Macs

I've seen USB devices struggling to enumerate on Mac/IOS devices before. This feels more like an Apple bug to me considering how they work very well on Linux, Windows and Android.

[inferiorhuman]

  I've yet to see a MCU vendor ship without bugs. At least with ST,
  the MCU is very cheap.

Moving the goalposts much? You went from "lengthy errata doesn't mean anything" to "at least it's cheap", which was my point entirely. The STM32 lineup is cheap with a bunch of features, has readily available documentation, and that appeals to a lot of people.

  This feels more like an Apple bug to me considering how they work very
  well on Linux, Windows and Android.

Yep, that's the typical STM fanboi response and part of why I'm not so gung ho on STM products. It just feels… cultish and obnoxious.

Meanwhile I've been using Macs on and off since before USB came around and this is the first USB device I've found that glitches out like that. Given that Apple uses off the shelf USB silicon (TI) and the complaints about STM's older USB FS peripherals I came across I'd fully believe it's an STM problem.

What is entirely STM's fault is that they still market the F7 based devices (ST Link, Nucleo, etc) as being Mac compatible. They've also skipped out on putting that fun little wart into the F7 errata.

[tialaramex]

I sympathize to some extent but really if popular products work for everybody else but not Mac, that sure seems like Apple ought to make it work even if technically it's not their fault, and I note that you've offered no evidence either way on whose fault this is.

Apple's products being shit in some ways isn't even a weird outlier, the company knows its loyal fans have nowhere else to go.