| HN Mirror

Thanks for the link, intresting. I must be missing something, how do these stats square with home prices being in the 200-500-infinity range ballpark and, a very decent for Europe, salary being 50 thousand euro or so?

Oh, and all these news reports saying how young Europeans have to live with their parents until their thirties?

RealityVoid 167 days ago

First of all, I am an EU citizen and I absolutely don't have to split rent with any flatmates. In fact, I own my residence.

Second, I did in fact split my rent with flatmates during my 6 years of college, we lived 5 people in about 200sqft, then my first job I split and apartment with 3 other people. That was luxurious already! Sure, it would tricky to live like that if you have a family, but as a young person? It's fine, actually, it was a great learning experience.

Anyways, what I want to tell you is that life is not that bad in the EU and things can be much much worse than the current status quo. Personally, I have no concern for myself or my comfort, but for my family. I could live in a box in a ditch.

If you own, you hit a jackpot, basically. Then, yes, life in Europe can be very nice.

Sharing an apartment while in college is OK, even fun in my book.

We're talking about immigrants though, right? (If you don't want more of us in your country, I don't think you're a monster, btw. But entertain me anyway?)

Go check out, say, Berlin salaries on levels.fyi or glassdoor or wherever you prefer and filter out US companies.

Given these conditions, 80000 euro is an amazing salary. Your take home is going to be around 46400 or 3860 euro monthly.

Then head to immoscout24 and check rent prices in Berlin. Let me spoil it a little, a two-bedroom, two-bathroom 65-80 square meters apartment is starting from 1500 euro or so plus 200-300 euro for heating plus the rest of utilities. Or 2000 euro monthly in total.

So after rent you're left with what, 1860 euro? Good luck getting through the month with that money in Berlin.

RealityVoid 166 days ago

> We're talking about immigrants though, right? (If you don't want more of us in your country, I don't think you're a monster, btw. But entertain me anyway?)

I was more talking about the choice to remain in my home country vs move to the US. And I assure you, I personally don't care where you come from as long as you do your job, we can understand each other and you're not a raging asshole.

My only pet peeves with immigrants is the people who never bother to engage with the host culture at all. I find it a bit disrespectful, but that's a personal take.

> I was more talking about the choice to remain in my home country vs move to the US.

Fair point.

I just realized I was replying from the perspective of attracting talent which obviously different from keeping it.

Glad things worked out for you. Staying close to loved ones and friends sure wins over pursuing money, as long as the situation is not outright dire.

optionalsquid 166 days ago

> So after rent you're left with what, 1860 euro? Good luck getting through the month with that money in Berlin.

I live in a higher cost-of-living city than Berlin, and could easily make it through the month on 1860 EUR, once rent and utilities have been paid

What would your expences look like, if you don't mind sharing?

Muromec 167 days ago

> So after rent you're left with what, 1860 euro? Good luck getting through the month with that money in Berlin.

I’m confused. Is Berlin more expensive than I think it is or you never cook yourself?

~~~Add: how do manage to pay more than 50% in effective taxes?~~~

yc-kraln 166 days ago

What costs are you calculating with that, net of taxes and rent, you can't survive as a single or even couple on 1800€+ in Berlin?

Like the median income here is extremely low, that salary puts you in the top 10%.

Help me understand because this doesn't make sense at all to me--context: living in Berlin the last 13 years

Your questions are likely addressed to me.

Well, maybe things are better than I imagine. Would you be comfortable sharing a few things? Thanks!

What're your monthly expenses? After rent, that is. Just groceries, a mobile plan, some clothes averaged over the year, etc.

Do you have an emergency fund? If so, what's the ballpark sum?

Are you going to be able to still pay rent when you retire?

Are you saving for a downpayment?

Do you feel financial secure enough to star a family?

Can you afford to visit some far-away place with beautiful nature once a year?

Can you afford to go... idk, skiing? Can you afford all the gear needed to do that and a few lessons?

Can you buy a gaming PC with something like rtx 5070 or so? Not into gaming? Can you afford a homelab made up of a few used PCs and a few Raspberry Pies to play around with Kubernetes or whatnot?

Muromec 166 days ago

Not me. I guess the GP wants to save 1k a month in case the nuclear war happens and drives a car to eat kebabs for breakfast, lunch and dinner. That sounds about right for American, so the saving are going towards health issues down the line. /s

And GP guesses your comment might be using humor as a coping mechanism.

I'm not American, the question was why Europe can't keep talent ("talent" doesn't really include me).

Well, the compensation is just depressing. And as that person from Ireland pointed out, all the talk about worker protections is barely more than fairy tales (maybe not in the Netherlands, idk).

Were we looking at 120 instead of 80, deciding between Europe's quality of life and pursuing career and money in the US would a real tough dilemma. With 80 just enough to pay rent and for groceries... Saving a thousand a month (a wild sum!) gets you to a 20% downpayment on a 500K home in just 8 years...

Where is more than 50% coming from? If you aren't married your effective tax rate is at 42% (tax plus social deductions which aren't technically taxes).

Tons of tax calculators available online, see for yourself.

> you never cook yourself?

I do cook but it's not like groceries are free. And what about saving for an emergency fund, a downpayment, a vacation, a new PC, laptop, phone. Or, god forbid, a car?

Do you feel safe and stress-free paying 51% of your take home comp just for rent? And keep in mind, 80K eur is top 1-5% salary.

The overwhelming majority doesn't make that much.

Muromec 166 days ago

Sorry, I misread 80k p/a for 8k monthly.

You have a point. I would not get two bedroom two bathroom apartment for myself alone however. Or live in Berlin for that matter.

Few years ago in Holland it was something like 100k salary == mortgage for 500k house. No downpayment, 2k monthly.

Having a sweet 30% reduction of taxable salary was very nice, otherwive learn sone cooking and get an income-generating partner to top it up. Now after layoffs and AI-bullshit depressing wages it doesn't sound nice at all and node of us is in IT is Mr. Fancy anymore.

And of course, mandatory -- don't go to western europe, everything is expensive, locals are racist, taxes are high and the weather is bad.

> Few years ago in Holland it was something like 100k salary == mortgage for 500k house. No downpayment, 2k monthly.

Would it be wrong to think that the borrower would repay a potential downpayment a few times over to the bank?

How much smaller that 2k mortgage payment would be with a 20% downpayment? And how much larger the share going towards the mortgage body would be?

If only the borrower's comp was just big enough to let them save for that downpayment.

Don't know about you, but to me it sounds almost as if the system was rigged against the worker, to redistribute wealth away from them and into the hands of employers and bankers.

prmoustache 167 days ago

I moved from one rich country (Switzerland) to Spain 6 years ago and accepted dividing my pay by 3 to do this move (pay increased in the meantime and is no 60% of what it was in CH). Basically the only thing that cost more to me now are holidays abroad and I will expect a lower retirement package but quality of life hasn't been reduced.

I could live 200m from the beach without having to share rent with flatmates and now own my place, have easy access to the sea, mountains, great bicycle riding roads and trails with few and respectful drivers, nice places to hangout and good climate to spend time outside.

And I wouldn't trade that to the terrible (to me) quality of life in the USA: road rage, gun violence, car dependency, stupid urbanism, litigation culture, next level puritanism and hypocrisy aren't for me.

Don't know your personal situation, but sounds like you're in a good spot. Happy for you! (Unironically).

Here're some rough current salaries/cost of living numbers though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46524452

Muromec 167 days ago

>Even if that pay was so much lower that you'd have to split your rent with flatmates? (yes, European comp is typically that bad, not oveblowing this)

In tech? Not really. Village kids having studies in the city -- sure, when they are too fancy to live in a dormitory. Tech is more like having a mortgage without your partner contributing kind of salary.

OK, come to think about it, I have to admit, a job in Tech means you can afford renting a place on your own.

I let my frustration with European comp levels take the best of me. My bad.

Some rough numbers here -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46524452