[Muromec]

> So after rent you're left with what, 1860 euro? Good luck getting through the month with that money in Berlin.

I’m confused. Is Berlin more expensive than I think it is or you never cook yourself?

~~~Add: how do manage to pay more than 50% in effective taxes?~~~

[yc-kraln]

What costs are you calculating with that, net of taxes and rent, you can't survive as a single or even couple on 1800€+ in Berlin?

Like the median income here is extremely low, that salary puts you in the top 10%.

Help me understand because this doesn't make sense at all to me--context: living in Berlin the last 13 years

[myk9001]

Your questions are likely addressed to me.

Well, maybe things are better than I imagine. Would you be comfortable sharing a few things? Thanks!

What're your monthly expenses? After rent, that is. Just groceries, a mobile plan, some clothes averaged over the year, etc.

Do you have an emergency fund? If so, what's the ballpark sum?

Are you going to be able to still pay rent when you retire?

Are you saving for a downpayment?

Do you feel financial secure enough to star a family?

Can you afford to visit some far-away place with beautiful nature once a year?

Can you afford to go... idk, skiing? Can you afford all the gear needed to do that and a few lessons?

Can you buy a gaming PC with something like rtx 5070 or so? Not into gaming? Can you afford a homelab made up of a few used PCs and a few Raspberry Pies to play around with Kubernetes or whatnot?

[Muromec]

Not me. I guess the GP wants to save 1k a month in case the nuclear war happens and drives a car to eat kebabs for breakfast, lunch and dinner. That sounds about right for American, so the saving are going towards health issues down the line. /s

[myk9001]

And GP guesses your comment might be using humor as a coping mechanism.

I'm not American, the question was why Europe can't keep talent ("talent" doesn't really include me).

Well, the compensation is just depressing. And as that person from Ireland pointed out, all the talk about worker protections is barely more than fairy tales (maybe not in the Netherlands, idk).

Were we looking at 120 instead of 80, deciding between Europe's quality of life and pursuing career and money in the US would a real tough dilemma. With 80 just enough to pay rent and for groceries... Saving a thousand a month (a wild sum!) gets you to a 20% downpayment on a 500K home in just 8 years...

[Muromec]

I got it that you were talking about the real situation and you personally have to live with flatmates while making 80k p/a, but it turns out you don't even live in Germany. My feeling are hurt by this and the fact that your math is not mathing really (what 20% downpayment?).

[myk9001]

> My feeling are hurt by this

Well, my feelings are hurt by seeing so many talented engineers getting compensated so badly.

How come that for all the signing and dancing about worker rights protections when push comes to shove it's US companies EU offices that are ready to pay their employees fairly? What kind of hypocrisy from EU companies is that?

If you think EU companies just cannot afford to pay that much, just compare what Siemens pays to the same level SWE in EU and US. (Have no relation to Siemens whatsoever, just an example).

[myk9001]

I don't feel like discussing my personal situation on the Internet. And was careful not to imply otherwise.

That said, I was considering relocating to Germany and researching the country as best I could. I do prefer European lifestyle, but the salaries are just a non-starter.

You can easily check the numbers I give though. Any specific mistakes there?

Btw, why are you so defensive about the fact comp is so low in Europe?

> your math is not mathing really (what 20% downpayment?).

> what 20% downpayment?

20% downpayment is generally expected by German banks if you want to take out a mortgage. Don't take my word for it, check yourself.

500K Eur x 0.2 / (12 * 1K Eur) = 8.3 years.

You implied that saving 1K a month is some absurd goal. I'm trying to show that's tablestakes if you hope to ever own a home.

[Muromec]

>Btw, why are you so defensive about the fact comp is so low in Europe?

It's lower compared to the US and to US companies offices in EU in absolute numbers, it's the fact. Why it's lower in general -- because the cost of living is lower. Why US companies in EU have to pay premium -- because they try to behave like in US and pay premium to their delusions of grandeur.

>You implied that saving 1K a month is some absurd goal. I'm trying to show that's tablestakes if you hope to ever own a home.

I do in fact own a house and lived through this situation. It's not that the goal is absurd in itself, it simply doesn't match the story as a whole.

>You can easily check the numbers I give though. Any specific mistakes there?

From the start, two bedroom at 80k salary for living alone is already an interesting choice for 2026. You either get a better salary, a partner who works, a smaller place or live in a village. The same with the rest -- you can't have both the grind-based compensation and chill-based lifestyle. It's not that individual things in your calculation don't hold the water, it's more like they different numbers don't correspond to the same real person when taken together. If you have marketable skills that warrant the lifestyle fancier than the normal IT person slapping some forms together in a bank, you will not get 80k.

I would also not go for Europe in general (especially for 80k) if you don't have 50-100k of saving already and have the expectations like this. Grind some in US (if you are of acceptable skin color for them), then go and chill here once you are done with the grind.

[myk9001]

Where is more than 50% coming from? If you aren't married your effective tax rate is at 42% (tax plus social deductions which aren't technically taxes).

Tons of tax calculators available online, see for yourself.

> you never cook yourself?

I do cook but it's not like groceries are free. And what about saving for an emergency fund, a downpayment, a vacation, a new PC, laptop, phone. Or, god forbid, a car?

Do you feel safe and stress-free paying 51% of your take home comp just for rent? And keep in mind, 80K eur is top 1-5% salary.

The overwhelming majority doesn't make that much.

[Muromec]

Sorry, I misread 80k p/a for 8k monthly.

You have a point. I would not get two bedroom two bathroom apartment for myself alone however. Or live in Berlin for that matter.

Few years ago in Holland it was something like 100k salary == mortgage for 500k house. No downpayment, 2k monthly.

Having a sweet 30% reduction of taxable salary was very nice, otherwive learn sone cooking and get an income-generating partner to top it up. Now after layoffs and AI-bullshit depressing wages it doesn't sound nice at all and node of us is in IT is Mr. Fancy anymore.

And of course, mandatory -- don't go to western europe, everything is expensive, locals are racist, taxes are high and the weather is bad.

[myk9001]

> Few years ago in Holland it was something like 100k salary == mortgage for 500k house. No downpayment, 2k monthly.

Would it be wrong to think that the borrower would repay a potential downpayment a few times over to the bank?

How much smaller that 2k mortgage payment would be with a 20% downpayment? And how much larger the share going towards the mortgage body would be?

If only the borrower's comp was just big enough to let them save for that downpayment.

Don't know about you, but to me it sounds almost as if the system was rigged against the worker, to redistribute wealth away from them and into the hands of employers and bankers.