[mourner]

Soviet stockpiles nearly depleted, 1.5 million dead or wounded, Black Sea fleet practically destroyed, third of strategic bomber fleet destroyed, economy in downfall, no major cities captured in 4 years of all out war, gas and oil revenues plummeting, and there are STILL people saying “oh they just didn’t even start for real yet, just you wait”, gosh. Just laughable.

[MomsAVoxell]

Russian war industry operating at levels it hasn’t in decades, 1.5 million dead or wounded == unverified and thus irrelevant as propaganda until it actually is verified, Sebastopol nuclear base still in Russian control with direct land corridors well and truly established, capture of cities not on the agenda for the special military operation (that’s your standard, not theirs), gas and oil revenues not plummenting (also unverified propaganda), and those of us who are aware of Russian military doctrine know all too well that the Russians escalate in ways that the US don’t (old Soviet stock goes first, new Russian stock saved for real war), so your standards may need to be adjusted if you want to understand this situation better.

[toast0]

> that the Russians escalate in ways that the US don’t (old Soviet stock goes first, new Russian stock saved for real war)

Isn't this mostly the same for the west? In the first year or so, everyone sent Ukraine their old stock. Clear the warehouses and increase production of current equipment. As the war continued, newer equipment was made available; cynically, this is where the sales demos happen for arms dealing to other states.

[MomsAVoxell]

I dunno, I think the US probably has a lot of weaponry it has held in stock in its conflicts as well, and yes it does tend to send its chumps into the meat grinder first - but we will have to see when the US actually takes on an enemy capable of fielding its own symmetrical response. So far this century, the US only fights asymmetric wars against much weaker opponents it knows it can defeat.

[mourner]

Russian war industry just burns reserves for nothing — hundreds of billions spent on missiles and long range drones didn't achieve any strategic objectives, all those expensive modern tanks, armored vehicles and artillery systems gets demolished by $500 drones, russian soldiers mass switching from military vehicles to donkeys, horses, bikes & buggies. Russia is no longer able to defend their vast territory against Ukrainian long range attacks so their oil refineries and military factories explode every day. 150k+ verified deaths (with names) already vastly exceed any russian wars since WW2 and we know there are many times more unverified ones.

Sevastopol nuclear base is irrelevant to modern warfare, and the fleet (both ships and subs) is either on the bottom of the sea (like the flagship Moskva) or gone to hiding in Novorossiysk because they can't defend against cheap Ukrainian naval drones.

Capture of cities not on the agenda — of course every time they fail spectacularly at something they'll claim they didn't plan it anyway, lol. They attempted and failed the capture of Kyiv, Kharkiv, Chernihiv, Sumy & Mykolaiv, then had to flee from Kherson & much of the Kharkiv oblast, and they are no longer strategically able to attempt capturing any more — only slow creep over obliterated rubble of small towns by sacrificing a thousand people a day in meat grinders.

I can't believe you can be so delusional, it's just amazing what russian propaganda does to people.

[MomsAVoxell]

I think you’ve swallowed your own propaganda pill and are having a hard time digesting it.

Yes, warfare has changed - but Russia’s war-fighting doctrine has changed along with it. Their war industry is ramping up to meet these challenges, and anyone paying actual attention, rather than being spoon-fed nightly news’ hot takes or funker530 clips, can see this on the ground.

> they didn't plan it anyway

So, where in the SMO doctrine did they ever make the claim their goal was to capture all of Ukraines cities? They’ve captured the cities they set out to capture.

But .. You’ve clearly educated yourself about their military goals - so where is it stated in the SMO that this constant capture of cities is one of their goals? Not your Western-propaganda spoonfed standard, actually theirs.

Perhaps you see this conflict from the perspective of a sports fan - but I assure you, the Russians do not.

> I can't believe you can be so delusional, it's just amazing what russian propaganda does to people.

“Doubleplusgood groupthink, ungood, wrongthink rectify.”

If you think Russia are the only ones using propaganda to obfuscate the nature of this conflict, it is you who is delusional.

Take a step back, have a look at the actual state of things on the ground, compare it to the stated goals which were put forth at the beginning of this SMO, and lets continue to discuss this rationally, if you can. So far Russia has got what it wanted - a buffer corridor to Sebastopol, control over the eastern oblasts, destruction of NATO bio-weapons labs, and a massive degradation of Ukraines military capabilities. Yes, perhaps at a far greater cost than intended, but nevertheless, today they are in control over the territory they set out to control.

Just because I’m willing to see this doesn’t mean I support Russia - or Ukraine for that matter - because I seriously don’t, but I’m also not going to just kowtow to western media. I’ll look for myself at the conflict from both sides and make my own assessment based on real facts on the ground. BTW, I live within a few hours driving distance from this conflict, have worked with assisting refugees arriving in my region for two years now, and have formed my own opinion by direct contact with those involved in the conflict as a priority over any information gleaned from mass media. I strive to avoid the propaganda, which is why we’re having this discussion in the first place.

[mourner]

> Perhaps you see this conflict from the perspective of a sports fan

I see this from the perspective of a Ukrainian living in Kyiv. Your ignorance is mind-boggling, and after the laughable mention of "NATO biolabs" there's truly no sense in further conversation. These tinfoil-head "I do my own research" people are something else.

[MomsAVoxell]

You deny biolabs were stationed in Ukraine? I suppose the Bandera cult isn’t real either, is it?

[wiseowise]

I mean, technically op might be right. Imagine gambler trying to win jackpot, but being down so much they have to sell their house.