[crazygringo]

> to put a stranglehold on innovations on the web

I think that's the hypothetical part, it's not reality. Safari continues to be a fully modern browser. It doesn't release new features quite as fast as Chrome, but it does generally adopt them.

If Apple were attempting to put a "stranglehold on innovations on the web", Safari's feature set would look very different. But that's not what's happening.

Like I said, Apple does lots of anticompetitive things. I'm not blind to what they do with the app store. I just don't think that the single browser engine policy is motivated by this, or has much effect on it, given how Apple does keep maintaining Safari as a modern browser.

[leptons]

It absolutely is reality. Safari is the worst browser by far, it's been compared to Microsoft's old Internet Explorer browser. But don't take my word for it, lots of people have written about it...

https://www.google.com/search?q=safari+is+the+new+ie

And Apple purposely will never implement lots of APIs that only their native apps allow (which other browsers implement), specifically to force many developers to create a native app to use these APIs, so that Apple can force the developer to give them a percentage of any purchases made through the app. They can't force a developer to give them a cut of purchases made through a web browser, which is why they purposely hobble the Safari browser engine and then force all other browsers to use this engine. If you can't see how bad this is, then you've been taken over by the reality distortion field.

It's spelled out in the DOJ lawsuit against apple, among many other anti-competitive practices.

Microsoft got sued and lost in an antitrust suit for bundling IE with Windows. Apple bundles Safari with iOS but forbids any other browser engine but their Safari engine. Can you imagine if Microsoft forbade any other browser from being installed on Windows? It's time Apple was brought to justice over their abusive anti-competitive practices.

Here's the whole DOJ suit against Apple:

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline

[ChadNauseam]

I suspect it might have been motivated by antitrust concerns, but safari is really not that bad. Check out Interop 2025: https://wpt.fyi/interop-2025

They generally are pretty caught up on features. They have webgpu, they support the web notifications API (once a PWA is installed), lots of stuff. My main gripe is that they make it too hard to install PWAs, but we're still waiting for an actual API for that. (Maybe in 2027? [0])

> And Apple purposely will never implement lots of APIs that only their native apps allow (which other browsers implement)

Can you give an example?

[0]: https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2025/11/24/the-web-insta...

[leptons]

Safari is the worst browser by far, especially on iOS. Apple also does things their own way, ignoring standards, so that I have to have a real actual iPhone to debug their platform-specific problems, especially around touch interactions.

>Can you give an example?

Web Bluetooth API, and lots of others. My product could use bluetooth but we're forced to work around Apple's Safari limitations and use Wifi instead, which drains the battery faster. We do not want to write a specific app for iOS (which costs us money to build and maintain), which then allows Apple to extort us for a percentage of sales through the app. Bluetooth would be the better option, but Wifi works although is a bit more cumbersome to deal with. So sorry Apple fans, you have to use wifi with our product because Apple reasons.

I am going to open a bottle of champagne when the DOJ finally forces Apple to allow other browsers on iOS.

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline

[jauntywundrkind]

Personally my feel is Safari at least isn't dead in the water any more, does ship some stuff. It's much better than 2 years ago. 4 years ago it was a travesty.

But there's still all sorts of wonkiness they just makes Safari non viable. If you don't PWA install, your storage gets cleared alarmingly quickly. If you do install it's still cleared wicked fast. Notifications seem to have incredibly unreliable delivery issues and require PWA installs to work at all. The features are closer to parity than before but the base functionality is still sabotaged deeply. 'The user is secure' with Apple is amazing doublespeak (the second meaning being securely in Apple's pocket with no where to go).

It's worth noting that Interop participants meet and decide via unanimous consent what they are going to work on each year. The anti-trust case against Apple would be far stronger if they didn't show up & find some stuff to work on, to agree to. And with apologies as I break out the tin foil hat, showing up also gives them some leverage to shape what doesn't get worked on too.

[concinds]

No, it's just not true.

Interop 2025 is a subset of web features, but Apple gets a veto on which features get included in each Interop round, and vetoes heavily. It doesn't reflect interoperability in general. Safari also consistently starts out the worst each year, and improves the slowest.

They don't support notifications correctly, they have a semi-broken implementation. Only a subset of sites will work, even though they'll work perfectly on Chrome or Firefox or even minor browsers. Even if you put the site on the homescreen.

[kelthuzad]

>> And Apple purposely will never implement lots of APIs that only their native apps allow (which other browsers implement)

>Can you give an example?

Web Bluetooth, Web USB, Web NFC, Web Serial...

Of course Apple will uphold its usual charade to claim that it's about pRiVacy & sEcuRiTy to maintain plausible deniability. They could easily implement it and keep it disabled by default, such that users could make the conscious choice to enable it or keep it disabled. Any adequate analysis of Apple's behavior and motivations must mention Apple's conflict of interest, because Apple will be biased against technology that could diminish the value proposition of "native" apps which Apple has been taxing so unchallenged for all these years.

[troupo]

> Web Bluetooth, Web USB, Web NFC, Web Serial

Chrome-only non-standards. Note that Firefox is against these, too.

> Any adequate analysis of Apple's behavior and motivations must mention Apple's conflict of interest

I've yet to see an adequate analysis that doesn't pretend that anything Chrome shits, sorry, ships is immediately a standard that must absolutely be implemented by everyone immediately.

[kelthuzad]

You're right that Firefox also opposes some of these specific implementations in its current form, and that Google often rushes features. However, that doesn't diminish Apple's conflict of interest at all, so sometimes their arguments happen to align with reality just as a broken clock is correct twice a day. Apple applies many double standards e.g. they allow native apps to access these hardware features (where they happen to collect a 30% tax) but block the Web from doing the same (where they collect 0%). If privacy was the only concern, they would work on a safe standard, but instead they block the capability entirely to ensure that any of the App Store's rivals remain constrained and thus inferior such that the App Store's revenue isn't threatened.

[troupo]

> You're right that Firefox also opposes some of these specific implementations in its current form, and that Google often rushes features. However, that doesn't diminish Apple's conflict of interest at all

Funny how you agree that Firefox opposes these non-standards, and how Google rushes things. And immediately turn around and basically say "no-no-no, Apple is to blame and Safari (and, by extension Firefox) must absolutely implement these non-standard features from Chrome".

The rest of demagoguery is irrelevant.

BTW literally the moment Firefox relented and implemented WebMIDI they had originally opposed, they immediately ran into tracking/fingerprinting attempts using WebMIDI that Chrome just couldn't care less about.

[xp84]

Are the Chrome features useful? Are they open? If it’s bad for users (e.g. some new ad tracking) or if it’s proprietary and thus expensive to license or reverse engineer that’s one thing, but if it’s not that, then refusing to ever adopt those standards (or to provide their own alternatives) is either foolish NIH syndrome on Apple’s part or it’s greed.

[troupo]

> If it’s bad for users (e.g. some new ad tracking)

Yes

> but if it’s not that, then refusing to ever adopt those standards (or to provide their own alternatives) is either foolish NIH syndrome on Apple’s part or it’s greed.

Note that Firefox's position is literally exactly the same as Apple's on these Chrome-only features: https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/

[givinguflac]

You seriously just link to a google search of people who agree with you?? Solid investigation. Hard disagree on safari being even in the same ballpark as IE; what’s your alternative, Google owns the entirety of the browser space?

[xp84]

I don’t really agree with allowing one monopolistic company to behave anticompetitively because we’re scared of their only competitor, another monopolist. They’re both menaces to consumer rights.

[leptons]

I included that link not as "research" but as proof that I am not the only one calling Safari "the new IE". It's been written about ad nauseum, and just because you think a google search is pointless doesn't mean my argument lacks merit - and if you were to do your own "research", I'd bet you would start with a google search. Thousands of people have written about it, so go see what they have to say, I am not the only one claiming it.

>Hard disagree on safari being even in the same ballpark as IE;

It's a crap browser, and Apple implements things the way they want to, especially around touch interactions. So I have to have a real iPhone to debug problems with Apple's implementations. Safari fucking sucks, it just does, and your trolling comment doesn't disprove it.

>what’s your alternative, Google owns the entirety of the browser space?

I don't care if they do or if they don't. All I want is an alternative to Safari on iOS. Is that really so bad??

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline

[crazygringo]

> So I have to have a real iPhone to debug problems with Apple's implementations. Safari fucking sucks

You'll still have to debug it. Even when other browsers are allowed, Safari isn't going away.

"Safari fucking sucks" isn't an argument that Apple is being anticompetitive. There are a bunch of things that suck about Chrome too. And Firefox as well. No product is perfect.

[leptons]

Of course I have to debug it, but I develop for standards, not Apple's wonky implementations of touch events and lots of other things. So I should not need Apple hardware to debug a web browser. I can't install Safari on Android or any other platform, so if there's a bug that only shows up in Safari, then I have to buy Apple hardware. I'd rather not give Apple one goddamned cent of my money, they have already mistreated us - we actually sued them in a class action lawsuit and won (2011 MBP). So no, I do not want to pay for an overpriced phone just to fix their stupid proprietary bugs. Everything works great on Chrome and Firefox and Opera and a bunch of other mobile browsers.

>There are a bunch of things that suck about Chrome too. And Firefox as well. No product is perfect.

Google doesn't prevent Apple from offering Safari for Android, Apple just wouldn't be able to make money offering it through Google's app store the same way they can extort iOS developers that sell anything through the native app.

"Chrome sucks too" is very subjective. I've never had a problem with it. I'm curious what you think sucks about Chrome. Firefox - well, I used to use it a while ago, but not so much anymore. I will fix bugs there and they are easy and free to fix. I can't say the same about Apple's Safari.

Apple used to make Safari for Windows, but it sucked so badly, and they figured they couldn't make any money from it, so they discontinued it. So they could definitely make Safari for other platforms, but they would rather force developers to buy an iPhone instead. Fuck that.

I'm sorry iPhone users, but you'll forever be second class citizens in my product sphere, and you can blame Apple for that, until they allow other browser engines.

[crazygringo]

You have a very idiosyncratic take. I've never heard anyone else complain, as a dev, that Safari was harder to develop for because it was buggier. When I run into JavaScript API differences between Safari, Chrome, and Firefox (as I have many times), they just mostly do different things where the spec is underspecified. I don't assume Chrome is doing it the right way and Safari is the buggy one. It sounds like you just develop Chrome-first.

Yeah, if you want to test against Safari you need Apple hardware. If you can't be bothered to get some cheap secondhand Apple hardware for testing for your business, then that says more about the business decisions you're making. The idea that Apple ought to be obligated to make its browser available on other platforms seems pretty silly to me.

You sound like someone complaining they want to develop a Microsoft Word plugin on Linux, and they're upset Microsoft doesn't sell a Linux version of Office and that they have to get a copy of Windows. What do you expect? You develop and test on the platforms where your desired users are. If you can't accept that basic reality, then maybe you shouldn't be making software.

[otterley]

> I'm sorry iPhone users, but you'll forever be second class citizens in my product sphere

I can’t help but wonder if your company’s leadership shares your level of disdain for your customers.

[kalleboo]

> But don't take my word for it, lots of people have written about it...

You mean that Chrome is the new IE

https://google.com/search?q=chrome+is+the+new+ie

[otterley]

I’m truly curious: as either a user or a developer, how are you impacted by Apple’s behavior and decisions with respect to its web browser engine policy? What is it preventing you from accomplishing?

[leptons]

Specifically for me, my company has a product that could use Bluetooth, but Safari will never implement the Web Bluetooth API, where Chrome has for some time on Android. So the workaround is to use Wifi instead (my product supports both bluetooth and Wifi), which drains the phone battery faster.

No, we do not want to write our own iOS app where Apple can then extort us for a percentage of any sales through the app, and we have to pay for the priviledge to develop that app, as well as buy Apple hardware to do so.

So instead we use Wifi, where we can maintain one single codebase - the web application, which works on both Android and iOS, but has to use Wifi. If Apple allowed Chrome to use its own browser engine, we would simply tell users to install Chrome to interact with our device. Then we don't have to pay Apple for anything, nor should we have to.

Apple purposely won't implement some APIs so they can force developers to create an app for their app store where they can collect money from any additional sales through the app. It's all spelled out in the DOJ suit, why won't you just read it??

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline

[crazygringo]

> Apple purposely won't implement some APIs so they can force developers to create an app for their app store where they can collect money from any additional sales through the app.

So then why doesn't Firefox support the Web Bluetooth API either? How can you jump to the conclusion that the lack of Safari support is about apps?

The reality is that the Web Bluetooth API is a draft. Not ratified. Not on the formal standards track. And Firefox doesn't even intend to implement it, due to security and privacy concerns around it and the fact that is it not ratified.

But go on assuming it's all about being anticompetitive...

> It's all spelled out in the DOJ suit, why won't you just read it?

I just did a Ctrl+F for Bluetooth and everything relates to smartwatches, not web APIs. There are only two references to Safari, none of which say anything about standards. The phrase "web standard" appears nowhere. The document is 88 pages long, and it's not immediately obvious to me where any of what you're talking about is spelled out. I hope you'll understand I'm not going to spend my afternoon reading the whole thing.

[leptons]

I don't really care what Firefox does. They get paid massively by Google, so who knows what their motivations are for what they do. Opera implements the same APIs in their browser, but that also doesn't work on iOS because Apple are dicks and force Safari on Opera too.

>Not on the formal standards track.

What a coincidence, Apple gets to vote on what the "formal standards track" is, and they have voted against anything that would hurt their app business.

>But go on assuming it's all about being anticompetitive...

Okay... Apple are anticompetitive and always have been. They forbid their OS from being installed on any hardware that isn't manufactured by Apple, even though it was easily possible to do. Their walled garden is very famous for being anticompetitive - banning any browser from using their own browser engine and forcing Safari is absolutely anti-competitive.

You know what? Just go fucking read the DOJ antitrust suit against Apple, it details the very many ways Apple is anti-competitive:

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline

But I bet you won't.

[crazygringo]

You seem to have lost the plot here. I started out by saying Apple is anticompetitive in plenty of areas.

But that's not what the conversation is about. I pointed out that in this area, it doesn't appear to be.

So I don't know why you keep pushing this PDF. It doesn't say anything about this specific area. I already checked.

And if you don't care about what Firefox does, then I think it's clear you're not having this conversation in good faith. You're not open to evidence or counter-argument, you just have a knee-jerk reaction that Apple is bad. OK, you do you. But I'm not going to waste any more time with someone who "doesn't care" about the most obvious counterpoint to their argument.

[otterley]

It’s not alleged in the complaint that Apple cripples Safari in order to incentivize developers to build apps instead. Respectfully, did you read it?

Also, why would your company cut off its nose to spite its face? If using Bluetooth is a customer requirement (as opposed to merely a “nice to have”), why wouldn’t you go to the lengths to provide an app for them?

[leptons]

>Also, why would your company cut off its nose to spite its face?

That seems like victim blaming. Apple is the tyrant here.

> If using Bluetooth is a customer requirement (as opposed to merely a “nice to have”), why wouldn’t you go to the lengths to provide an app for them?

Because then have to hire an iOS developer and pay for everything to develop an app, which Apple can then use to extort a percentage of sales for anything purchased through the app. Or I have to write the app myself, and I'm already working 18 hours a day. FUCK THAT. Not going to happen. Apple users will always be second class citizens to me as long as Apple treats other browsers like second class citizens and forbids other browser engines. Making an iOS app isn't a clear pathway to riches, so Apple users will just have to use a more clunky wifi experience. That's just the way it is.

[leptons]

>It’s not alleged in the complaint that Apple cripples Safari in order to incentivize developers to build apps instead. Respectfully, did you read it?

DID YOU READ IT? Below are some of the relevant sections.

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline

Rather than respond to competitive threats by offering lower smartphone prices to consumers or better monetization for developers, Apple would meet competitive threats by imposing a series of shapeshifting rules and restrictions in its App Store guidelines and developer agreements that would allow Apple to extract higher fees, thwart innovation, offer a less secure or degraded user experience, and throttle competitive alternatives. It has deployed this playbook across many technologies, products, and services, including super apps, text messaging, smartwatches, and digital wallets, among many others.

9. Apple suppresses such innovation through a web of contractual restrictions that it selectively enforces through its control of app distribution and its “app review” process, as well as by denying access to key points of connection between apps and the iPhone’s operating system (called Application Programming Interfaces or “APIs”). Apple can enforce these restrictions due to its position as an intermediary between product creators such as developers on the one hand and users on the other.

16. Apple wraps itself in a cloak of privacy, security, and consumer preferences to justify its anticompetitive conduct. Indeed, it spends billions on marketing and branding to promote the self-serving premise that only Apple can safeguard consumers’ privacy and security interests. Apple selectively compromises privacy and security interests when doing so is in Apple’s own financial interest—such as degrading the security of text messages, offering governments and certain companies the chance to access more private and secure versions of app stores, or accepting billions of dollars each year for choosing Google as its default search engine when more private options are available. In the end, Apple deploys privacy and security justifications as an elastic shield that can stretch or contract to serve Apple’s financial and business interests.

43. Developers cannot avoid Apple’s control of app distribution and app creation by making web apps—apps created using standard programming languages for web-based content and available over the internet—as an alternative to native apps. Many iPhone users do not look for or know how to find web apps, causing web apps to constitute only a small fraction of app usage. Apple recognizes that web apps are not a good alternative to native apps for developers. As one Apple executive acknowledged, “[d]evelopers can’t make much money on the web.” Regardless, Apple can still control the functionality of web apps because Apple requires all web browsers on the iPhone to use WebKit, Apple’s browser engine—the key software components that third-party browsers use to display web content.

60. For years, Apple denied its users access to super apps because it viewed them as “fundamentally disruptive” to “existing app distribution and development paradigms” and ultimately Apple’s monopoly power. Apple feared super apps because it recognized that as they become popular, “demand for iPhone is reduced.” So, Apple used its control over app distribution and app creation to effectively prohibit developers from offering super apps instead of competing on the merits.

[otterley]

Merely citing longer passages of the complaint does nothing to better support your initial claim.

We’re done.

[troupo]

> https://www.google.com/search?q=safari+is+the+new+ie

Which is of course bullshit

--- start quote ---

The allegation that Safari is holding back web development by its lack of support for key features is not new, but it’s not true, either. Back fifteen years ago IE held back the web because web developers had to cater to its outdated technology stack. “Best viewed with IE” and all that. But do you ever see a “Best viewed with Safari” notice? No, you don’t. Another browser takes that special place in web developers’ hearts and minds.

...even though Chrome is not the standard, it’s treated as such by many web developers.

https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_th...

--- end quote ---

[aryonoco]

Safari is the modern IE. the fact that PWAs didn’t take off in the last decade js purely due to Safari.

The only reason Apple has banned alternative engines and continues to hold back on major web technologies is anticompetitive behaviour.

[ryandrake]

No, I think Chrome is the modern IE. It has huge market share, to the point where developers often just ignore the other browsers or at best treat them as P2. Just like they did when IE was dominant.

I'm torn on this honestly. Safari (particularly mobile Safari) is literally the only thing keeping the web from becoming Chrome-only. While I would love to see Safari-alternative engines on the iPhone, I fear that the "open web" in terms of browser compatibility is cooked the day that happens: Commercial web developers are supremely lazy and their product managers are, too. They will consider the web Chrome-only from that day forward and simply refuse to lift a finger for other browsers.

I think when IE6 died, on one hand it was a relief for web developers, who (very quickly) deleted all the code needed to maintain compatibility, but on the other hand, it made the web worse by bringing us closer to browser monopoly.

[xp84]

Chrome is the IE in that it’s all the web devs target or test and the browser that every enterprise just uses as the assumed target. Safari is the late-stage IE that doesn’t add any features or modern standards that its (supposed) competitors add. Although Apple seems to have different and more strategic reasons than MS did. Apple just hates the Web because they can’t effectively tollbooth it, whereas I think MS just didn’t care about investing in IE after 2001 or so.

[crazygringo]

> Safari is the modern IE.

That's not true. It's not even available on most computers. IE was about Microsoft not following web standards and abusing its monopoly position; Safari is a minor browser by overall market share and is broadly standards-compliant.

> the fact that PWAs didn’t take off in the last decade js purely due to Safari.

So then why aren't PWA's super-popular on Windows and on Android? Since Safari doesn't affect those?

[kelthuzad]

>So then why aren't PWA's super-popular on Windows and on Android? Since Safari doesn't affect those?

Says who?

"Yes, PWAs have become popular on these platforms. I work for Microsoft on the Microsoft Store (app store on Windows) and I work with the Edge team, and I work on PWABuilder.com, which publishes PWAs to app stores. Some of the most popular apps in the Microsoft Store are PWAs: Netflix, TikTok, Adobe Creative Cloud, Disney+, and many others.

To view the list of PWAs in the Store, on a Windows box you can run ms-windows-store://assoc/?Tags=AppExtension-microsoft.store.edgePWA" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46457849

[realusername]

> Safari is a minor browser by overall market share and is broadly standards-compliant.

It's officially compliant but in practice there's a lot of buggy implementations in Safari and you'll spend lots of time on workarounds and debugging.

It's also the last non-evergreen browser being tied to the OS so it's the slowest to update, compounding that effect.

> So then why aren't PWA's super-popular on Windows and on Android? Since Safari doesn't affect those?

Personally I think that's because it's still not that convenient even on Android even if better.

[crazygringo]

If those are the extent of complaints, then I think Safari's doing just fine. That's nothing like the next IE, and shows that PWA still have their own problems regardless of Apple.

[kelthuzad]

It's interesting how the "Apple can do no wrong" shareholders and "I will hate on PWAs no matter what" types, curiously converge and keep regurgitating the same talking points that have been addressed ad nauseam, even in this thread. Every technology has its "own problems" regardless of Apple, but it certainly doesn't help when Apple, being one of the biggest companies in the world, persistently engages in its sabotage.

[realusername]

I worked through the IE days and Safari definitely has a IE feeling that you can't shake off.

IE had a lot of browser features which officially were there but in practice didn't fully work.

I had issues with forms, zIndex, SVGs, backgrounds and localStorage with Safari. All of which I consider basic browser features which should always work.

Of course it's not as bad as IE but Safari is clearly lagging very far behind Chrome and Firefox