[givinguflac]

You seriously just link to a google search of people who agree with you?? Solid investigation. Hard disagree on safari being even in the same ballpark as IE; what’s your alternative, Google owns the entirety of the browser space?

[xp84]

I don’t really agree with allowing one monopolistic company to behave anticompetitively because we’re scared of their only competitor, another monopolist. They’re both menaces to consumer rights.

[leptons]

I included that link not as "research" but as proof that I am not the only one calling Safari "the new IE". It's been written about ad nauseum, and just because you think a google search is pointless doesn't mean my argument lacks merit - and if you were to do your own "research", I'd bet you would start with a google search. Thousands of people have written about it, so go see what they have to say, I am not the only one claiming it.

>Hard disagree on safari being even in the same ballpark as IE;

It's a crap browser, and Apple implements things the way they want to, especially around touch interactions. So I have to have a real iPhone to debug problems with Apple's implementations. Safari fucking sucks, it just does, and your trolling comment doesn't disprove it.

>what’s your alternative, Google owns the entirety of the browser space?

I don't care if they do or if they don't. All I want is an alternative to Safari on iOS. Is that really so bad??

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline

[crazygringo]

> So I have to have a real iPhone to debug problems with Apple's implementations. Safari fucking sucks

You'll still have to debug it. Even when other browsers are allowed, Safari isn't going away.

"Safari fucking sucks" isn't an argument that Apple is being anticompetitive. There are a bunch of things that suck about Chrome too. And Firefox as well. No product is perfect.

[leptons]

Of course I have to debug it, but I develop for standards, not Apple's wonky implementations of touch events and lots of other things. So I should not need Apple hardware to debug a web browser. I can't install Safari on Android or any other platform, so if there's a bug that only shows up in Safari, then I have to buy Apple hardware. I'd rather not give Apple one goddamned cent of my money, they have already mistreated us - we actually sued them in a class action lawsuit and won (2011 MBP). So no, I do not want to pay for an overpriced phone just to fix their stupid proprietary bugs. Everything works great on Chrome and Firefox and Opera and a bunch of other mobile browsers.

>There are a bunch of things that suck about Chrome too. And Firefox as well. No product is perfect.

Google doesn't prevent Apple from offering Safari for Android, Apple just wouldn't be able to make money offering it through Google's app store the same way they can extort iOS developers that sell anything through the native app.

"Chrome sucks too" is very subjective. I've never had a problem with it. I'm curious what you think sucks about Chrome. Firefox - well, I used to use it a while ago, but not so much anymore. I will fix bugs there and they are easy and free to fix. I can't say the same about Apple's Safari.

Apple used to make Safari for Windows, but it sucked so badly, and they figured they couldn't make any money from it, so they discontinued it. So they could definitely make Safari for other platforms, but they would rather force developers to buy an iPhone instead. Fuck that.

I'm sorry iPhone users, but you'll forever be second class citizens in my product sphere, and you can blame Apple for that, until they allow other browser engines.

[crazygringo]

You have a very idiosyncratic take. I've never heard anyone else complain, as a dev, that Safari was harder to develop for because it was buggier. When I run into JavaScript API differences between Safari, Chrome, and Firefox (as I have many times), they just mostly do different things where the spec is underspecified. I don't assume Chrome is doing it the right way and Safari is the buggy one. It sounds like you just develop Chrome-first.

Yeah, if you want to test against Safari you need Apple hardware. If you can't be bothered to get some cheap secondhand Apple hardware for testing for your business, then that says more about the business decisions you're making. The idea that Apple ought to be obligated to make its browser available on other platforms seems pretty silly to me.

You sound like someone complaining they want to develop a Microsoft Word plugin on Linux, and they're upset Microsoft doesn't sell a Linux version of Office and that they have to get a copy of Windows. What do you expect? You develop and test on the platforms where your desired users are. If you can't accept that basic reality, then maybe you shouldn't be making software.

[leptons]

>I've never heard anyone else complain, as a dev, that Safari was harder to develop for because it was buggier.

Then you simply are not paying attention.

There are thousands upon thousands of articles written about how Safari is the worst web browser.

https://www.google.com/search?q=safari+is+the+worst+browser

It's not idiosyncratic at all, it's a very mainstream, real thing. Just because you have your head in the sand does not mean it doesn't exist.

>If you can't be bothered to get some cheap secondhand Apple hardware for testing for your business, then that says more about the business decisions you're making.

I shouldn't have to spend any money for the privilege to debug Apple's crap browser.

>The idea that Apple ought to be obligated to make its browser available on other platforms seems pretty silly to me.

I never said they were obligated, only that they once did, and failed miserably, and couldn't monetize it, so they packed up and went home. They could, and once did have Safari on other platforms. Now they don't so fuck Apple, I don't care what they do or care about their users any more than Apple cares about developers.

>You sound like someone...

You sound like an Apple fanboi, and there seem to be many brainwashed similar to you in this comment section.

None of what you described is accurate, I only want Apple to allow other browser engines on iOS, and to not be anti-competitive assholes. That's it. And the DOJ thinks so too, so you're not in the right here defending Apple's tyranny.

>What do you expect? You develop and test on the platforms where your desired users are. If you can't accept that basic reality, then maybe you shouldn't be making software.

I expect Apple to be abusively anti-competitive and not block other browsers from using their own browser engines. Once they do that, then I will shut up about it. Until then, Apple are the assholes. Not me. Not other browser makers. Just Apple, and their apologists.

[otterley]

> I'm sorry iPhone users, but you'll forever be second class citizens in my product sphere

I can’t help but wonder if your company’s leadership shares your level of disdain for your customers.

[leptons]

I am the company leadership, and I really don't care what you think. Go away.