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by ericmay 171 days ago
There is room between under-regulation and over-regulation.

Given that we are experiencing high costs and other barriers to construction, we can do at least two things: reduce red tape where it makes sense or where the risk is acceptable to help lower costs, or the US government can, through a variety of mechanisms ranging from basic research funding to direct subsidies, spend taxpayer money to try and alleviate costs.

Given that we supposedly (and I agree) need to build nuclear reactors to help power our country and given that we aren’t building them, we can optionally use both levers to encourage construction. There seems to be this mind virus that has infected many people on the internet that seem to think that regulations are a moral good, and so having more of them must be more good.

This is not accurate.

Regulations are simply a tool we can wield to achieve desired outcomes within various risk and need-based calculations. More regulations can be good, for example we should ban highway billboards- that would be a good regulation. Or we can eliminate regulations - allow businesses to build more housing using pre-approved designs that meet existing zoning code. Neither is good or bad, except in that it helps to achieve some aim that society has.

The regulation or lack there of, of nuclear energy in the United States has absolutely nothing to do with Boeing airlines screwing up some plane designs. Drawing a conclusion that nuclear energy must be regulated (it is) or over-regulated (it probably is or else we would build more), because of a belief that Boeing airliners weren’t regulated enough is, to put it lightly, nonsense, and you are mistakenly using the application of some regulation or lack of causing some bad things to happen, to imply that more regulation in another area would mean good things happen through this framework of regulation == good.

And further, if you’re going to suggest that Boeing is effectively unregulated, which is untrue in practice and in principal, then I’d argue that was for the best given that it is a hugely successful company that employs tens of thousands of people and hundreds of millions have flown and continue to fly on their airlines every single day safely and without incident.

2 comments

> There seems to be this mind virus that has infected many people on the internet that seem to think that regulations are a moral good

The people who don't agree with you are largely reasonable, as you likely are, and are no more infectees of a "mind virus" for holding their opinions than you are for holding yours. There's no need to denigrate them, or misrepresent their views to try to make your point. Indeed, many of them arrived at their opinion after seeing what happens when people push for not-enough regulation: Once bitten, twice shy.

With something as serious as a nuclear reactor, I am OK with over regulation.
But why not same scrutiny for coal?
Correct operation of a coal plant has global impact, and therefore coal should be phased out entirely.

Absent that, when a coal plant goes badly wrong, the damage is small enough and localised enough to be affordable.

When a nuclear plant goes wrong, the upper bound for error includes both Chrenobyl and also "unknown parties stole the radioisotopes" followed by terrorists repeating the Goiânia accident somewhere.

Making all the failure modes not happen is expensive.

But one is enforced (nuclear security) and coal is not.

p.s. ICE cars are literally spewing cancer fumes right into kids faces. 0 fucks given. If anything people try to frame EVs as actual devil.

I would like to enforce a coal ban, but nobody gave me an army with which to do so.

Not that I could've enforced it for all those years even if I had an army, as coal was dominant for so long for the same reason it is now being rapidly displaced: cost.

Except that modern car engines are vastly improved over their 1970’s carburettor fed, catalytic convertered, counterparts.
Go and run your car in garage lol.

I swear HN is infested with bots now.

In the entire history of civil nuclear power "unknown parties stole the radioisotopes" has never happened.

The Goiânia accident caused four deaths.

The Chrenobyl reactors weren’t even housed in containment buildings, they were housed in what’s best described as a shed.

Got any real complaints?

> In the entire history of civil nuclear power "unknown parties stole the radioisotopes" has never happened.

This reads a bit like "why do we need a QA department when we don't have any bugs"?

The reason nobody stole the stuff from reactors is because everyone has, by international law and also nonbinding recommendations, security and armed guards making sure they don't. These are not free.

The Goiânia accident was stupidity, not malice, so you can't predict how many people would die if it was done maliciously from how many were killed. My understanding is what keeps people (relatively) safe from this type of attack at the moment, is the public deployment of radiation sensors since 9/11, which we know about because of people with radioisotopes in them for medical reasons getting caught by them. These are not free.

The Chrenobyl reactors were housed in what’s "best described as a shed" because that was cheap. Same for all of the other design issues with those reactors: it made them cheap.

The rules that make reactors expensive are written in incidents.

> The Chrenobyl reactors weren’t even housed in containment buildings, they were housed in what’s best described as a shed.

And why was that allowed? Because of quality regulation?

Got any examples of any presently operating civil power reactors that don’t have their reactor cores in some kind of containment structure?

Others I guess the answer to your question is: fuckwit communists were running the place at the time.

Why do you think I am more generous towards the coal industry? We are talking about nuclear power. If you would like my opinion on coal, I will gladly give it to you. You never asked.

For starters: I think clean coal is absolute nonsense (I’ve cited the White House’s outrageous stance on this several times on HN) and people brush away the environmental, social, and general health impacts of coal to their own peril. We know the harmful impacts. We know the body count. We have alternatives and it’s time to move on.

I am absolutely 100% critical of the coal industry/power - far more than I am of nuclear. It doesn’t even compare.

So to answer your question:

> But why not same scrutiny for coal?

I’ll give you the same answer I give every person who gives me this tired refrain without ever even trying to suss out what I think about coal: I am. You are misinformed. And it has no impact on my desire to demand the highest safety standards for nuclear power.

Over regulation of nuclear energy in the US made it so expensive we didn't replace all fossil fuels with it.
I don't think this is true at all.

It's a heavy capex business with very small marginal returns, that takes planning on the order of decades.

AKA, a US company's worst nightmare. Investors don't like that shit, they like half-baked software that code monkeys can pump out.

A fully paid off nuclear reactor is extremely profitable because of little fuel cost.
Operating a commercial reactor and keeping it up to regulations isn’t exactly cheap. It requires people, periodic inspections, maintenance, and lots of paperwork to prove you are not cutting corners.
When the cost of people is more than the cost of equipment, upkeep and maintenance that is arguably exactly when overregulation becomes burdensome
Operating a nuclear reactor is in fact very cheap since there is very little fuel cost.
Nuclear power in a the US was collapsing due to cost and schedule overruns already before TMI.

Blaming regulations seems like trying to find a scapegoat rather than admitting reality.