[jwr]

Today I found out that USA (arguably the most libertarian country on earth, as far as business is concerned) has strict laws governing the sale of vehicles, said laws actually preventing companies from selling vehicles. I find that quite amazing.

[travisp]

Under most rankings of economic freedom, the United States barely manages to be in the top 10. The Heritage Foundation places Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Canada, Chile, Mauritius, and Ireland all above the United States on their Index of Economic Freedom.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

[ImprovedSilence]

Doesn't Australia have hideously terrible internet regulations? I guess that wouldn't fall under economic freedom...

[travisp]

A lot of nations have hideously terrible regulations in some area, and comparing such regulations in an index like this is of course subjective to some extent. It's also not a measure of all freedoms (otherwise, Singapore wouldn't be so high). It's intentionally only looking at economic freedom, which is relevant to the comment I was replying to (and as far as I can tell, the index is not trying to imply that these are the only freedoms that matter).

[tjmc]

If you're referring to mandatory filtering no - it never happened. Despite the communications minister announcing it. A large ISP also won a major test case against big media about having to report file sharers. Turns out they dont have to. So right now it's not so bad but I'm waiting for the nanny state to fight back.

[damoncali]

Singapore? You are free in Singapore to the degree that their benevolent dictatorship wishes you to be.

[beagle3]

That's basically true everywhere. Except that in Singapore, it is explicit.

Are you free to fill your gas tank in New Jersey (hint: no).

Are you free as an american taxpayer to bank outside the US? (hint: no).

Are you free to sell cars in the US? (hint: no)

Are you free to get medical diagnostics of your choice in New York state (paying the market price, of course)? (hint: no)

Are you free to live in California, yet own a liquor store in New York? (hint: no)

There are numerous other examples. The common thread in these examples is that some lobby managed to secure a legislation that guarantees their benefit at your expense. You have about as much power to change that as a Singaporian does to change things in their country.

Really, if you believe that the US is more free than the rest of the western world, you're probably unaware of the local law (and probably of the laws elsewhere)

[damoncali]

Except Singapore rigs its elections.

[beagle3]

The US has simulated freedom with the two party systems. I don't know whether elections are rigged in the US or Singapore; but to assume that US elections is fraud free is a bit naive (see recent voter registration scandals for the prelude; and follow BlackBoxVoting for the details that humans can't directly follow). If you assume the fraud magnitude is trivial, or that it cancels out, you better have a good explanation for it.

If you think you are better off, you are sorely mistaken. You're not worse off either. It's just all the same.

[damoncali]

I don mean fraud. The elections are rigged by the ruling party in Singapore. They time them to occur only when they are strong politically and dont give their opposition a realistic chance to compete. Th us is far from perfect, but is a stretch to all Singapore a democracy at all. Singapore is not place where one is free. It is a place where one is free to do what is in the interest of the government. Luckily, they are a very talented crew, and it works out well- for now. But to put a place where one cannot buy chewing gum at the top of some list of free societies is an interesting choice. The place is downright Orwellian.

[travisp]

Absolutely true and one of the reasons I would be hesitant to live somewhere like Singapore. I wasn't arguing that Singapore was better, but simply discussing the surprise that the original commenter had in learning about such restrictive economic regulations in the US.

And the truth is, Singapore's benevolent dictatorship and the governments of 8 other nations currently allow their citizens more economic freedoms than the democratically elected politicians in the United States. At least, that's what this Index claims, which seems to match reality to some extent. The Index doesn't measure the power of the government to take those freedoms away on a whim, or non-economic freedoms, but simply the current level of economic freedom in these countries.

[jetti]

Not to mention that there are some states that just prohibit the sales of vehicles on Sunday. That is what I find amazing. I can't imagine being told that one day a week I'm not allowed to sell my product.

[techdmn]

It does seem a little odd, but as a resident of one of those states I think it's awesome. I can peruse the lot with zero chance of being approached by a salesperson. IMHO it actually facilitates car sales, because one day a week people can look at new cars without immediately feeling like prey.

[jetti]

You can do that online any time. What you see in the lot on Sunday is the same as what you would see online.

But as a resident of one of those states as well, I hate it. Not because I want to buy a car on Sunday but because if the dealership is open the service section of the dealership would also be open.

[moheeb]

No, what you see online is a digital representation of a physical product. What you see on the lot is an actual physical product that can be touched and smelled.

[mcguire]

...and sat in. Or not, in my 6'5" case.

[jetti]

Not when the dealership is closed though...that's the point of just looking online when they are closed on Sunday.

[gfosco]

There's a huge difference between looking at pictures online and seeing the cars in person.

[Khao]

In Québec auto dealers are only allowed to be open on weekdays. I can't see why our province (or maybe it's a Canadian law I'm not sure) needs to pass a law to prohibit car sales on the week-end.

[mcguire]

There are some very strange laws. In Texas, IIRC, a vehicle dealer must be closed on either Saturday or Sunday. So you get some dealers advertising, "Go see everyone else on Saturday, buy from us on Sunday!" And then, there are recreational vehicle dealers that have to close their motorhome sales one of the two days, but can sell trailers all weekend long.

[ImprovedSilence]

I know right? I have a couple college friends working for GM. They get some awesome employee discount, and can flip it and buy a new car every 6mo or year or so. But they still have to go through dealers to buy their car. It's crazy. They can see their car in the GM lot, as it's being built, but they have to wait until it's shipped to a dealer, pay through a dealer, pick out their options through a dealer and submit a build sheet through a dealer, and still wade though dealers trying to up sell them on crap sitting on the dealer lots, just to "buy" their car.

[rprasad]

Part of the GM dealer franchise agreement prohibits GM from competing against its dealer franchises, i.e., by selling directly to customers straight from the factory.

It's not a law, it's simply a contractual provision that the dealers negotiated to protect their investments.

[w1ntermute]

> arguably the most libertarian country on earth, as far as business is concerned

Ahahaha, I hope you're joking. The US isn't even close to being libertarian. The American economic system isn't based on capitalism, it's based on corporatism and regulatory capture.

[icebraining]

Yes, but aren't other countries even less libertarian?

[w1ntermute]

According to two major economic freedom indices[0][1], the US is ranked 18th and 10th, respectively, worldwide. So no, I wouldn't say that the US is the "most libertarian country in the world".

0: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World

1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

[noarchy]

Canadian here. My country is listed higher than the US in both lists, but I have to laugh out loud at that. Canada is swimming in protectionist laws that choke off competition in some vital sectors, like telecom. Even Amazon got crap for wanting to open warehouses here, because it was considered too "threatening" (as in, people might shop there) to the protected, Canadian companies. Canadians routinely cross the border to shop in US towns that are close to the border, because we don't get gouged as much there, and the choices are far better than we get here.

[mahyarm]

Candadian who moved america: America just has it's own special brand of protectionist crap. Americans often buy their medication from Canada due to all the crony capitalism that the USA has encountered with their health care system. Don't get started on the whole corn subsidy SNAFU.

Also the USA has cheaper shopping compared to most of the world. Few places are cheaper, especially for goods that are not food, clothing or similar.

Canada is primarily a resource economy. Minerals, oil & banks take up a majority of of the TSX's value. Symptoms of Dutch Disease are prevalent inside canada itself.

[noarchy]

I'm particularly amused when American regulators try to claim that one should not purchase drugs from Canada, because their safety can't be verified. Really.

Every rich nation has a complex web of mercantilist measures in place, for sure.

[revelation]

That is a common experience for me (Germany here). There is no guaranteed vacation (full on neoliberalism), few barriers to firing people (dito), but theres also minimum wage, something that is completely foreign to most right and middle-leaning parties here.

So the evidence seems to suggest that the whole libertarian and socialism debate is nothing but political banter, with little ideological foundation.

[driverdan]

The free market works for jobs too when you let it. If company A offers a job with no vacation and company B offers 4 weeks a year the employee will choose company B. If neither offers vacation you can choose to find another company / industry or start your own.

Job protection laws protect and promote mediocrity.

[beagle3]

It does in an employee market. If it's an employer market (which it is during economic downturns), then company A will offer your a job with no vacation, and company B will offer you a job with no vacation AND no overtime payment. And there are no other companies, and most people can't start their own.

A free market is an inherently unstable equilibrium. If you don't put protection in place to make it stable, it will quickly stop being free.

Of course, if you put too much protection, you get other unwanted effects, like promoting mediocrity. Extremes, either way, are bad.

[talmand]

We have strict laws governing the sales and services of all kinds of things. Some of them are good, some are bad. The strictness and enforcement of these laws can also range from state-to-state.

The problem with some of these laws are that often they were written with the idea of protecting a business concern to maintain their advantage over, and to the detriment of, the consumer.

[artursapek]

If there's any industry begging to be "disrupted," it's the automotive industry.

[ImprovedSilence]

True, and Tesla has been the biggest disruptor. But barriers to entry are huge, and regulation really clamps down on "disruption".

You know all those awesome concept cars you see at car shows that never get built? One reason nothing revolutionary comes out is that the industry is regulated to the max. Much of it is "safety" features, which may be well and good, but much of those "safety" constraints are arbitrary. But there are laws about everything from the shape of the steering wheel, to how far apart headlights need to be, and the CAFE standards pushing for fuel economy limits how cars have to be designed and built, as the companies need to squeak out every last mpg on the car.

[artursapek]

Let's hope the government sees Tesla as the exception it is and lets them do their thing.