[travisp]

Under most rankings of economic freedom, the United States barely manages to be in the top 10. The Heritage Foundation places Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Canada, Chile, Mauritius, and Ireland all above the United States on their Index of Economic Freedom.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

[ImprovedSilence]

Doesn't Australia have hideously terrible internet regulations? I guess that wouldn't fall under economic freedom...

[travisp]

A lot of nations have hideously terrible regulations in some area, and comparing such regulations in an index like this is of course subjective to some extent. It's also not a measure of all freedoms (otherwise, Singapore wouldn't be so high). It's intentionally only looking at economic freedom, which is relevant to the comment I was replying to (and as far as I can tell, the index is not trying to imply that these are the only freedoms that matter).

[tjmc]

If you're referring to mandatory filtering no - it never happened. Despite the communications minister announcing it. A large ISP also won a major test case against big media about having to report file sharers. Turns out they dont have to. So right now it's not so bad but I'm waiting for the nanny state to fight back.

[damoncali]

Singapore? You are free in Singapore to the degree that their benevolent dictatorship wishes you to be.

[beagle3]

That's basically true everywhere. Except that in Singapore, it is explicit.

Are you free to fill your gas tank in New Jersey (hint: no).

Are you free as an american taxpayer to bank outside the US? (hint: no).

Are you free to sell cars in the US? (hint: no)

Are you free to get medical diagnostics of your choice in New York state (paying the market price, of course)? (hint: no)

Are you free to live in California, yet own a liquor store in New York? (hint: no)

There are numerous other examples. The common thread in these examples is that some lobby managed to secure a legislation that guarantees their benefit at your expense. You have about as much power to change that as a Singaporian does to change things in their country.

Really, if you believe that the US is more free than the rest of the western world, you're probably unaware of the local law (and probably of the laws elsewhere)

[damoncali]

Except Singapore rigs its elections.

[beagle3]

The US has simulated freedom with the two party systems. I don't know whether elections are rigged in the US or Singapore; but to assume that US elections is fraud free is a bit naive (see recent voter registration scandals for the prelude; and follow BlackBoxVoting for the details that humans can't directly follow). If you assume the fraud magnitude is trivial, or that it cancels out, you better have a good explanation for it.

If you think you are better off, you are sorely mistaken. You're not worse off either. It's just all the same.

[damoncali]

I don mean fraud. The elections are rigged by the ruling party in Singapore. They time them to occur only when they are strong politically and dont give their opposition a realistic chance to compete. Th us is far from perfect, but is a stretch to all Singapore a democracy at all. Singapore is not place where one is free. It is a place where one is free to do what is in the interest of the government. Luckily, they are a very talented crew, and it works out well- for now. But to put a place where one cannot buy chewing gum at the top of some list of free societies is an interesting choice. The place is downright Orwellian.

[beagle3]

> But to put a place where one cannot buy chewing gum at the top of some list of free societies is an interesting choice.

I'm sure you believe that, as many do. I'm not saying Singapore is a free country. But it IS comparable to the US and western Europe.

So, you can't buy chewing gum in Singapore, big deal. You can't buy alcohol on a sunday in many places in the US. You can't buy wine in a grocery store in New York.

I've heard from a Yemenite guy that you can't get their traditional perfectly-legitimate-everywhere-else stimulant (can't remember the name - Jhat?) in the US.

Before Feb 2008, you could not buy a sex toy in Texas. In Alabama, you still can't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_obscenity_statute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Obscenity_Enforcement_Act ; I don't remember which state right now, but in one of them, walking shirtless down the street is enough to get you on the sex offender list.

Again, I'm not saying Singapore is free or a bastion of democracy. But theory means nothing, and in practice, it is on par with the rest of the western world.

[travisp]

Absolutely true and one of the reasons I would be hesitant to live somewhere like Singapore. I wasn't arguing that Singapore was better, but simply discussing the surprise that the original commenter had in learning about such restrictive economic regulations in the US.

And the truth is, Singapore's benevolent dictatorship and the governments of 8 other nations currently allow their citizens more economic freedoms than the democratically elected politicians in the United States. At least, that's what this Index claims, which seems to match reality to some extent. The Index doesn't measure the power of the government to take those freedoms away on a whim, or non-economic freedoms, but simply the current level of economic freedom in these countries.