[willahmad]

It’s ironic how the West has long championed democracy, demanded freedom of speech, and called for human rights from everyone.

Only to suddenly adopt authoritarian, anti-free speech, anti-human rights, and anti-protest stances the moment free speech began to critique Israel.

It’s truly shameful to see such developments.

[philipallstar]

> Only to suddenly adopt authoritarian, anti-free speech, anti-human rights, and anti-protest stances the moment free speech began to critique Israel.

It's not sudden. The West's hate speech laws have been coming for ages. Anyone silly enough to put that much enforcement over speech into play cannot now complain that it's being used against people they like.

[soulofmischief]

This US-centric take blatantly fails to address all of the problems, the right-wing ideologies, which have easily had a much greater impact on the rise of fascism across the world.

And to be clear, US liberalism is largely supportive of right-wing ideology, the US Democratic party would be considered a right-wing party in many other countries. So it's both parties who are to blame here, but the underlying authoritarian fascist current is decidedly right-wing politics

[philipallstar]

This was nothing to do with the US. I was actually thinking about the UK's laws when I wrote it.

I'm trying to talk ideas; your post is riddled with just identifying which team is the goodies and the baddies. I don't think there's much common ground to be had between discussing ideas vs tribalism.

[soulofmischief]

They're all the baddies, at least in the US. You must have missed the part where I described both parties as contributing to authoritarian fascism.

It's ridiculous to accuse me of peddling tribalism when my post intentionally pushed back against the very tribalism coloring your original post.

Can we get back on topic?

[philipallstar]

> It's ridiculous to accuse me of peddling tribalism when my post intentionally pushed back against the very tribalism coloring your original post.

No it didn't. You said this has just appeared, when actually it's been happening for years.

[soulofmischief]

Are you confusing me with the other user you replied to higher up?

[tremon]

Yes, you were thinking of the UK's laws, but from the perspective of the US Constitution. There's an implicit tribalism in your own post where you assume without contest that the US' definition of free speech is the only one that can possibly have merit.

[philipallstar]

I'm not a US citizen. You're making all this up.

[xtiansimon]

> “…long championed democracy…”

Just occurred to me, before the free internet both dissemination of opinions and access was restricted. Now we have unprecedented access, and there are obvious strains and regression. Makes you wonder what we missed from the times before the internet.

To be sure, this legislation sounds draconian: “This expansive framing blurs the line between political dissent and subversive threat. Intent becomes a political judgement, inferred from beliefs, causes and associations rather than conduct.”

[ThrowawayTestr]

You truly believe this change is because of Israel?

[happymellon]

This change? IMHO Yes.

It was coming anyway, and it could have been any event that triggered it. The right event at the right time?

But as others here mention, the powers that be are unhappy that the population isn't siding with their position. The government is fine with dissent against Russia because they are "the enemy" in the narrative.

[stephen_g]

Not to say there hasn’t been creeping authoritarianism, growing mass surveillance, etc. for the last few decades, but it has seemed that this one issue has stood out as utterly unique, especially in the UK in that there was basically bipartisan accord from those in power across all the mainstream political views, and the only “allowed” position from them was uncritical support for that country’s Government and their military actions.

At the same time, there seemed to be a much larger group of people in the normal population who disagreed with those in power than most other issues (when at least some representatives in a major party might roughly align with the people)

[kg]

The uk has specifically banned support for Palestine Action so it's a reasonable conclusion

[ThrowawayTestr]

Didn't that group attack an RAF base?

[happymellon]

Attack is a strong word for throwing a can of paint.

After the 2024 riots there were mass arrests and prosecution, but only talk about reviewing groups as to whether they should be proscribed.

Why does a member throwing a can of paint get you classed as a terrorist organisation, while organising riots that involve throwing molotov's and causing serious injury not?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_Kingdom_riots

[dfawcus]

Their initial statement the day of (or after) the action at the RAF base was something like:

  "disabled aircraft using paint and crowbars"

Which even if they didn't use crowbars, then would seem to require the turbines be inspected for alignment and physical damage.

[happymellon]

> disabled aircraft using paint and crowbars

Is that "terror"?

Besides, why not prosecute them for their actions, why proscribe the organisation as a terrorist one, while at the same time ignoring groups who commit much more violent offenses (such as the one given) and concentrate on prosecuting "personal responsibility"?

[vogon_laureate]

And violently sledgehammered a female police officer breaking her spine.

[Natfan]

and that's terrorism, is it?

i just thought it was GBH, but i'll update my definition if you can cite your sources...

[vogon_laureate]

Given that the Palestine Action is a proscribed terrorist organisation under the Terrorism Act, and its co-founder said just one day after the Oct 7 massacre: “When we hear the resistance, the Al-Aqsa flood [Hamas' name for the massacre] we must turn that flood into a tsunami of the whole world.”

Yes.

[willahmad]

Did it happen when people protested Russian invasion? No

Did it happen when people protested China for the treatment of Uyghurs? No

Did it happen when people speak up (no protests, yet) about UAE involvement in Sudan? No

I made my own conclusions based on these and other similar data points.

[blackwateragent]

Its almost 2026 and you still believe the uyghur propaganda...?

[Zigurd]

TBF despite the fact you're right, it's still beside the point. Some protests are seen as more wholesome than others.

[7952]

I agree. Although not sure how sustained or substantive that "championing" ever really was.

[AviationAtom]

It's stretching all the way back to 2020. It isn't something new. It isn't just the government you need to be most worried about silencing you now, as other institutions wield equally great power.

[sph]

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

History, just like everything else in Nature, is cyclical.

[ahoka]

I hate this quote as it is usually recited by those “weak men”.

[stephen_g]

I agree with the sentiment, I’d probably phrase it slightly more politely as “people who use this always seem to believe they are the ‘strong men’ and other are the weak”

[sph]

And those that hate the quote are the “strong men”? Given the many complaints about it, instead of trying to read between the lines about history being proved time and time again to be cyclical, I wouldn’t be so sure.

The responses, ranging from political partisanship, ad hominem, to being offended by the choice of words, are certainly a sign of the times.

[logicchains]

People who forget the hard lessons their ancestors learned are doomed to repeat their mistakes.

[7952]

Exactly! Its lucky we learned the lesson of WWII and invaded all those horrid dictators. Wait....

[Antibabelic]

Notably, this quote makes actual historians cringe. But hey, if it sounds cool it must be the Truth!

[js8]

It's a protofascist phrase, part of the problems we have is people adopting this worldview, that life has to be hard in order to create "good men". It's used to defend rightwing social darwinism.

If anything, history goes the other way around. Fascism ("strong men") comes from good times, as a reaction. They create authoritarianism and discrimination ("bad times"), which slowly liberalizes and equalizes (gives rise to "weak men"). This makes situation better until another fascist takeover.

[teddyh]

Exogenous factors! <https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/strong-3>

[nailer]

The phrase is commonly used amongst conservatives, yes. Labelling it “proto fascist” is ridiculous.

[tremon]

How exactly did you get to the conclusion that fascism needs "strong men"? The current US regime has nothing but the weakest, most fearful men clutching to power. You really think that Trump's call to execute senator Kelly comes from a position of strength? Your current bad times came from a few decades of weak men letting their fear and hatred (and greed) guide their vote -- strong men had very little to do with it.

Anyway, the quoted saying is not about any specific ideology, that's just your own projection. Here's the cycle reformulated without any specific ideology:

Hard times create strong men: hardship breeds discipline

Strong men create good times: discipline breeds prosperity

Good times create weak men: prosperity breeds complacency

weak men create hard times: complacency leads to hardship

[js8]

"How exactly did you get to the conclusion that fascism needs "strong men"?"

Fascists (and protofascist advocates of social darwinism) do think that! Whether they actually are or not "strong men" (what does it even mean?) is immaterial to that saying.

I disagree with the saying. Even your formulation. Hardship doesn't breed discipline, and prosperity doesn't lead to complacency. There are many disciplined people who have good and prosperous life, and also, why is being disciplined more important than good life? It's authoritarian and backwards.

For example, being homeless (hardship) doesn't make one disciplined. Most likely, it will make one into an alcoholic.

Hardship is horrible and we should universally reject it.

[drcongo]

If there's one thing everyone can agree on, it's that Hitler really brought the good times for the people of Germany.

[meindnoch]

That's deep bro! I think this was coined by Joe Rogan, right?

[user____name]

Cyclical, like my eyes rolling in my sockets every time I read this quote.

[andrepd]

That is an extremely shallow phrase, usually quoted by people who have nothing to add except an appeal to "the good old times" when "men were men".

So is the idea that "history is cyclical". It's literally the bell curve meme, and you're in the middle x)

[brushfoot]

If this obnoxious and seemingly ubiquitous platitude were actually true, then torture would be a moral duty. Enforced poverty would be a moral duty. Governments would be obligated to regularly arrange mass starvations for their citizens.

I don't believe it. Personally, I think spiritual weakness and religious corruption are more likely culprits -- and not necessarily the type of spirituality or religion that you might be thinking of.

Either way, "good times" is a dangerous place to put the blame. It relieves us of responsibility for our own catastrophes (it was the good times' fault), and it makes us suspicious of prosperity and happiness.

Good times are not evil. We don't need to shun them, provided we keep strengthening the better angels of our nature.

[OgsyedIE]

As strongly as many of us are on a particular side, the latest battleground for and against material support for overseas belligerent fascism is just a lightning rod for a deeper struggle.

While most of the individual members of the state are just rallying around the flag, the core ideological group inside the state has the belief that the public must never be allowed to dictate the choice of geopolitical ingroup and outgroup. The repression they are enacting isn't about lsreaI per se, it's about the principle of the thing.

[gadders]

It's been going on for longer than that. Ask Graham Linehan.

[piltdownman]

Graham Linehan is an example of nothing other than how to tank your marriage, friendships, and any semblance of a professional career over a misguided moral crusade.

He was a well-known and liked figure in Ireland off the back of Father Ted, Black Books and the IT Crowd. He was a huge blogger and early presence on Twitter, with both him and his wife being public feminists and supporters.

He was also - and this is the important bit - a public advocate and supporter for the pro-choice position in our abortion referendum, which gave him some sense of intellectual and moral security in his heartfelt positions, as well as a huge fanbase.

Unfortunately some of his previous advocacies evolved into TERFs, and he with them. This then became a mono-crusade under the guise of standing up for the women in his life and women in general. Slowly but surely his fanbase, his professional connections, and society at large fell out of step with him.

https://metro.co.uk/2021/02/23/graham-linehan-joins-queer-wo...

As his antics became more extreme and problematic in their optics, his friends, his family, and his Wife begged him year after year to stop sabotaging his own existence before eventually having to leave him.

He's dug down so far at this point that he's being courted by Joe Rogan, which is probably the saddest bit of this entire story.

[SideburnsOfDoom]

This recent interview piece is instructive: https://observer.co.uk/culture/interviews/article/graham-lin...

The interviewer is clearly sympathetic to Mr Linehan and their personal views are not opposed.

But nonetheless they end up thinking "I tried to understand why I couldn’t get through, why the piece I’d wanted to write for years would be a failure" - because the guy is an obsessive, unwell crank, that's all. It is a sad story.

[Natfan]

ghoulish troll man refuses to shut up, gets told to eff off.

in other news, water makes things wet.

[logicchains]

It started before that. The powers that be in western European countries can no longer deliver prosperity or security to their citizens, so must instead use force and repression to cling on to power.

[OgsyedIE]

The Wikipedia page on the Swing Riots of 1830 is a great example of how it goes.

[nailer]

Link to proper source https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/ageofrevolution/riots/the-swing-rio...

[trueismywork]

It can he argued that they only delivered prosperity to European countries by using force and repression elsewhere in the world.

[Saline9515]

Many European countries got rich without colonization (e.g the Baltic States before WW2, or Austria-Hungary).

Moreover, economic studies show that the profitability was discutable - in the case of France it was a net loss due to the massive infrastructure costs and the subsidies for non-competitive industries.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3769485

[philipallstar]

It can be, but that would be wrong.

In 1096AD, while the Mayans were plunging daggers into their sacrifices' chests, England was busy opening Oxford University. What sort of fool would think that somehow all the engineering and scientific advance that would allow England to reach around the world and establish an empire could possibly have been caused by that empire?

[unleaded]

it never has. see McCarthyism for instance

[gradus_ad]

>Never

>Mentions one discrete event

Come on...

[keepamovin]

Indeed, but historical nuance bears remembering here. The UK has been authoritarian for much of its history: the monarchy; sentencing to prison thousands of miles away to be slave labor for colony building for stealing a loaf of bread.

Even while Europe is "Pan Western" it's still heavily differentiated. As [REDACTED TO PREVENT REFLEXT DOWNVOTES] says, "US is the central pillar of Western civilization." This is true in the sense that it embodies values closest to the Western ideal.

This is one of those conversations that in 2025 entering will get you on a GB border control blacklist, so I'm going to shut up now.

[eurekin]

Looks like a typical too good to be true funnel to get most people on board and then rug pull. Bait and switch, only executed on longer timeframe

[pmarreck]

Critiquing Israel as well as any political or religious entity or set of beliefs should be allowed, or there will be problems. This is basically the Paradox of Tolerance coupled with the fact that intolerance itself seems to be a viral meme if left unchecked.

I still can't believe the UK has arrested people based on their social media posts. Why are people standing for that, over there? (I'm a US citizen.) Meanwhile, one could make direct quotes from the Quran or Hadith and you'd likely remain unchallenged because religion gets a free pass from reasonable critique for some illogical reason. Appeasement will eventually lead to fear...

[pbiggar]

I can't tell or not, but are you aware that the US has deported/arrested thousands of people for their social media posts?

[nailer]

These are very different situations.

In the US it is typically that someone on a visa has supported a terrorist group or advocated for violence.

In the UK it is rather that a British citizen is visited by the police because someone else has stated they find a piece of content offensive.

[pbiggar]

In almost no cases has someone supported a terrorist group or advocated for violence. They're literally just taking lists provided by Israeli extremists and deporting them.

[nailer]

> In almost no cases has someone supported a terrorist group or advocated for violence.

"We support liberations by any means necessary including armed violence"... "Violence is the only path forward" - Mahmoud Khalil

Do you live in the united states? People commonly state "all resistance is justified", demand a third intifada, demand Jewish people be driven out of their own homeland, or feature flags/flyers for Hamas/Hezbollah/PIJ at pro Palestinian marches.

[fidotron]

> It’s ironic how the West has long championed democracy, demanded freedom of speech, and called for human rights from everyone.

What's really remarkable is how completely the illusion that this is what they were doing lasted in those countries. Some authority somewhere is cursing letting plebs on the Internet for destroying this.

Ask a latin american and see if they think that's what has been going on.

[makingstuffs]

Honestly, if you are able to, get out while you still can. For too long we’ve been on this slippery path and no government has any incentive to step off it.

People speak as though Farage would be any different but fail to acknowledge that he is as much a grifter as any of the others running, if not more so.

Maybe the Greens would provide some change but, at this point, they’re no more than a protest vote which is why I personally stopped my membership.

The fact that consecutive governments all used phrases like ‘all pulling our weight’ in reference to the cost of living crisis while taking pay rises for themselves should say it all but, sadly, people are too busy chasing headlines and internet points to extrapolate and assess a situation logically.

The UK and its allies will very much be on the wrong side of history should humanity live to see the next century through.

[nebula8804]

And go where? The US is in pretty bad shape and sinking. Europe can be a bit better or much worse depending on your background. Is there any solid alternative?

[makingstuffs]

You’re right in that there is no one place which will solve all of one’s problems. There is an entire continent across the channel which will at least permit you to easily travel through, and settle in, a decent number of countries with very little effort.

While it’s not a silver bullet by any means, being able to freely move between, and experience, multiple cultures outweighs the melancholy we have back in Blighty.

We, in the UK, are constantly told how great we have it in terms of healthcare and welfare. The reality is the opposite. Our healthcare is barely fit for purpose. Our welfare system fails to help those who need it the most.

The one thing I have noticed more than anything else during my travels is that we, in the UK, have resigned our ourselves to a mentality of hopeless acceptance of the status quo. We tend to shrug it off with reductive statements such as ‘well, X has Y problem’ as if that justifies the swathe of issues which should not be present in a country which has tried to position itself on the world stage as a vestibule for decency and morality over the past century.

Nowhere is _perfect_, but many places are _better_.

[Natfan]

i would be able to do that, had a bunch of old farts not voted in a referendum that didn't affect them because they all died of covid

[piltdownman]

In Ireland opposition to the ongoing Genocide in Palestine is a wholly secular and humanitarian concern, divorced entirely from any correlation with race, religion, ethos or creed - despite agitators attempts to label it to the contrary. We are, however, unique in Western Europe in this regard - but it is not a mono-culture and the reasons are very contextual.

While Germany is not an advocate of genocide in any sense, it is a major arms exporter to Israel and has also barely been re-admitted into the human race as a result of their egregious human rights violations and war crimes in the previous century. This over-erring on the side of caution for their previous victims can thus be explained, if not excused.

The UK, however, have distinguished themselves instead by trying to prosecute Irish Rappers for Terrorism, and proscribing Palestine Action a terrorist organisation - putting it alongside Al Qaeda and ISIS, and making support of the group a criminal offense punishable by up to 14 years in prison. It seems that to protect democracy under the current newspeak you have to arrest Placard wielding Pensioners.

https://www.nbcnews.com/world/united-kingdom/uk-arresting-pe...

British police have made over 1,300 arrests using terrorism legislation at Palestine Action protests this summer — five times more than the total number of arrests for terrorism-related activity in the U.K. in all of 2024. From a retired British colonel to a Catholic priest, half of the 532 people arrested in the Parliament Square protest alone were 60 or older.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/16...

Those participating in anything akin to the Coal Miner's Strikes of the 80s under Thatcher would no doubt find themselves charged with 'domestic terrorism' and put on no-fly lists alongside other societally chilling measures. In short, this is to distract from the economic black-hole they find themselves in post-Brexit, with incitement to hatred spurred on by paid agitators like Tommy Robinson who is in turn backed by Elon Musk/Russia, or Nathan Gill the former MEP who was jailed for accepting around £40,000 in bribes from a Russian-linked individual to support pro-Russian politicians.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/23/world/europe/uk-far-right...

France has its own particularly xenophobic issues - but they are focused on Islamic migration from North Africa as a follow-on from France's appalling history of Colonial abuse in the region. Thus the French far-right, typified historically by their anti-semitism, end up as uneasy bedfellows and proxy Zionists by virtue of Marine Le Pen's stance since kicking her father out of their far-right party over his persistent refutation of the Holocaust.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/world/europe/france-jews-...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/06/marine-le-pens...

Our colonial legacy in Ireland, as the oppressed, however, grants us a special insight and advocacy for those in analogous circumstances - be it historically re: refusing to handle goods from Apartheid South Africa, or contemporarily with our Occupied Territories Bill (or whatever watered down version passes American MNC muster).

https://mandate.ie/2024/07/the-day-10-workers-changed-the-wo...

[drcongo]

I'd love to know wht this excellent post is getting downvoted, though I suspect I know the answer.

[LorenPechtel]

You mean the Ireland that wanted to redefine "genocide" so they could call the war genocide? Thus the government that knew it was not genocide.

Sorry, but war in urban areas is extremely ugly. That does not make it genocide.

As for apartheid South Africa--look at the reality. Their revolution was jumping from the frying pan to the fire. Just because the new oppressors were of the same skin color doesn't make them not oppressors.

[piltdownman]

Nice try.

In December 2024 Amnesty International denounced it as a Genocide, leading to Israel’s foreign ministry defaming the London-based group as a “deplorable and fanatical organisation”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/05/amnesty-intern...

Two prominent Israeli Humanitarian Organisations - B'Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights-Israel - identified it as Genocide in July 2025. Dr Guy Shalev, executive director of PHRI, said: "Silence in the face of genocide is not an option. We want to stress: confronting genocide is not only the responsibility of legal and political institutions. Confronting it demands urgent action from the global health community."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c776xkvz6vno

In September 2025, the world's leading association of genocide scholars, which includes a number of Holocaust experts (IAGS), has declared that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza and that Israel's conduct meets the legal definition as laid out in the UN convention on genocide.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cde3eyzdr63o

In September 2025, the independent international commission of inquiry set up by the UN also concluded that “genocide is occurring in Gaza”. Legal analysis accused Israel of committing genocide in four out of five categories as defined by 1948 convention and cited ‘Direct evidence of genocidal intent’, saying that its offensive there has been waged “with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/16/un-commission-...

[LorenPechtel]

That leading association of genocide scholars????

No, a small subset. Of an organization whose sole membership requirement is paying the membership fee.

And the rest of your stuff isn't much better.

[tdeck]

Pretty telling that you couldn't resist doing apartheid apologia and Zionism in the same comment.

[piltdownman]

When someone tells you who they are - _listen_ to them

[b00g13bored]

This Xennial cannot help but notice the zeitgeist mirrors the emotional abstract of the Reagan 80s.

See Roger and Me, Michael Moore's first film. Economic downturn, workers facing uncertainty as the already opulent thrive.

Coincidentally GenXers that would have come of age at the time are middle managers and decision makers in corporate land.

CEO that jacked up Epipen prices. Insurance CEO that got got. Musk and Thiel. The original emo Smashing Pumpkins generation that grew up in a cocaine fueled era of news full of desperation and despair. Easy for them to tolerate and accept then as their brains nursed on it.

Good luck getting them to feel bad: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/25/style/gen-x-generation-di...

[nailer]

This seems unlikely as support for conspiracy theories about Israel (eg the genocide hoax) are common in the UK including among the ruling classes, e.g. the police and the BBC.

The people being visited by police for creating content that other people say they find offensive are generally anti-immigration or anti gender ideology rather than anti-Israel.

[narrator]

I just asked AI what the thousands of arrests for social media posts so far are for and it didn't say anti-semetic content. It said it's largely targeted at anti-immigrant, gender-critical, and being mean to politicians comments. Israel is the "woke right" line these days though, and something the "woke left" and "woke right" can both agree on hating.

[nmeagent]

> I just asked AI

Please stop doing this. If someone wants to read LLM-generated hooey of some variety, they can submit a prompt somewhere and read the resulting text themselves.

[narrator]

Well I could do a web search and read all the thousands of articles about social media censorship in Britian and write an essay on it with grammar errors, or I could go on here and blame Israel like the OP, because that's just what I'm feeling today and I saw a bunch of stuff while TikTok doomscrolling yesterday that made me believe that. You'd say the articles I quoted that didn't say Israel were not from reliable sources, and absolutely nobody's mind would be changed. I'll trust AI to be more objective about doing the research. However, I did write the comment myself. I mean I would go back and edit it and put in random no-no words for AI, just to prove that, but I'd get flagged.