[tene80i]

It’s not a misuse - it’s exactly the intended meaning and it is perfectly common in mainstream usage.

Allowing yourself to be vulnerable means you are indeed open to attack. But it is also a large part of emotional connection. The alternative is being a fortress - with all the relationship problems that entails.

The very fact that you see vulnerability as “bad” is a perfect example of what that language is intended to highlight.

[aspenmayer]

> The alternative is being a fortress - with all the relationship problems that entails.

I’m reminded of the concept of siege mentality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_mentality

> In sociology, siege mentality is a shared feeling of victimization and defensiveness—a term derived from the actual experience of military defences of real sieges. It is a collective state of mind in which a group of people believe themselves constantly attacked, oppressed, or isolated in the face of the negative intentions of the rest of the world. Although a group phenomenon, the term describes both the emotions and thoughts of the group as a whole, and as individuals. The result is a state of being overly fearful of surrounding peoples, and an intractably defensive attitude.

> Among the consequences of a siege mentality are black and white thinking, social conformity, and lack of trust, but also a preparedness for the worst and a strong sense of social cohesion.

[mewpmewp2]

Is vulnerable about letting people know how you feel or your weaknesses?

What about letting people know how you feel and your weaknesses while not caring if someone judges you for it? Is that being vulnerable or not?

[erikerikson]

I would say yes. Your weaknesses, if truly shared are weaknesses which can be used against you to hurt you and thereby you are vulnerable to them. Further, even if you don't care about the judgment of others then you can still be harmed by decisions of and social coordination between people who judge you.

We agree, assuming self knowledge, that the judgments of others tell you about them rather than about you.

[mewpmewp2]

This leads me to a conclusion that someone can only be truly vulnerable around people that you might consider toxic?

It's unavoidable in many cases, but I'd prefer a life where I would surround myself with people who tried to build each other and not take advantage of each other. I think it's definitely possible, and I think I'm pretty much there at least.

This leads me to the next point, which is that I don't think it's a problem about men unwilling to be vulnerable, it's more so about them happening to be around people who might use it against them (and it succeeding effectively, ergo there being a critical mass of people supporting this).

[erikerikson]

Not using a capacity may atrophy it but does not remove it. I haven't cherry picked with git in a very long time but I could if I wanted to. I'm not violent but physics still allows it. Toxicity is not required for people to be vulnerable.

I totally prefer the lift each other up crowd too. They exist, often in the same spaces as everyone else.

IMO, the problem comes down to a current inability to scale social knowing.

However, you seem to want to grind on an axe and I worry I might be getting in the way of that. I suggest you consider what has you activated and whether you can take away it's power to echo through and continue hurting you.

If you are currently a target of DV, reach out; there are lots of people and organizations who want to support you and have tools to do so. This may not apply to you but seemed appropriate place to remind us all.

[mewpmewp2]

> However, you seem to want to grind on an axe and I worry I might be getting in the way of that. I suggest you consider what has you activated and whether you can take away it's power to echo through and continue hurting you.

What do you mean by that? What axe?

[erikerikson]

It seems to me (and clearly I could be wrong) that you really want to express certain sentiments. Another way to say it is that you seem to be engaging in motivated arguing. Said with the more standard idiom, that you have "an axe to grind".

[lazide]

If you are under attack, vulnerability is bad.

Historic ‘stoic male’ personas existed for a reason. Because in many situations, it works. Despite the complaining.

And being less ‘emotionally connected’ is valuable when people use that connection to exploit or hurt you. A very common experience for many men.

That people (especially women) then complain you won’t open up to them is a riot in those situations because it’s like someone complaining you keep putting on your bullet proof vest - while they keep shooting at you.

Historic male mental health issues also resulted. But notably, folks depending on the stoic persona for their own wellbeing would typically throw you under the bus for those issues too.

“How dare you get mad! You’re a dangerous threat!” says the person constantly harassing the person, or the boss putting you in worse and worse work conditions while pretending they are doing you a favor, etc.

They do that, of course, because mad people actually fight back. But if you need the job or are dependent on the relationship…

As many men have experienced, the only way to ‘win’ is shut off caring about what people say on that front - among other emotions.

[watwut]

> Historic ‘stoic male’ personas existed for a reason.

What are you talking about here. "Historic male persona" differs between periods and places, but anger, friendships and happiness are basically always parts of it.

Odysseus "weeps" and "cries". The whole romantic era was about overly emotional, passionate and sensitive guys.

[marginalia_nu]

Homer predates the stoics by several centuries, so that makes sense. Though I do think Homer does make a solid case of traditional male ideals being fairly emotional, and this is something that persists to modern day.

Achilles in particular spends half the Iliad sulking in his tent, and the other half making shish kebabs out of the Trojan army on a tireless revenge-rampage where he's so goddamn angry he picks a fight with a river.

These types of characters are still written today, John Wick is something of a superficial parallel.

Though it could be argued that Achilles lengthy sulking is diva behavior, few would argue Captain Kirk is effeminate because he's more emotionally driven than Spock, who in many ways turns the stoic ideals up to 11. Likely because despite occasionally chewing the scenery with emotional moments, he is still ultimately in control.

(It's also worth noting that neither Achilles or Odysseus were likely intended as ideals, but rather tragic extremes, and Homer's works largely deal with the consequences of their personalities; the pride and rage of Achilles like we just discussed, the pathological distrust and constant scheming of Odysseus protracting his journey and being the true source of many of his countless obstacles)

[lazide]

Even if it was written post-peak-stoic-era (it wasn’t), you still would probably not find many historic ‘stoic men’ as primary characters in a drama such as the Iliad. They would tend to be either scenery/setting, or somewhat uninteresting.

for good reason.

They are typically not very dramatic, and do the right thing - even in difficult circumstances. That is anti-drama.

They are the ‘good dads’. The strong leaders who make sure the right things actually happen. Etc.

They are not perfect, or superhuman. They can’t change the tide of a tsunami. But they do tend to make sure their family (and anyone who will listen to them without making their primary mission difficult!) also get to high ground at the right time.

If society actually listens to them, society might even build a high enough sea wall that the Tsunami doesn’t even destroy the city. That one is rare, however.

[nephihaha]

Repressing emotions is bad. Letting them stop you finding a solution is worse. I've found myself in bad situations a number of times. Sensitivity has its place but sometimes it is a hindrance.

[lazide]

Notice how I never said what you are disagreeing with, and if you read what I said, your question is answered?

[watwut]

I had no question. You also do not know what historical stoicism as a philosophy and behavior was, but I assumed actual historical stoicism was not the point.

My point was, you made up "historic stoic persona" based on conservative ideology. Not as something that actually characterized historical manhood.

[lazide]

Haha, Marcus Aurelis is very disappointed.

Tell me what I made up, eh?

The point of stoicism is to make your own decisions and be able to chart your own life by following principles you believe are just - in large part by avoiding being controlled by emotional reactivity/manipulation.

Not to cut out emotions all together, but to not be driven by them. Especially when someone is trying to induce them in you.

This often comes across as ‘stone faced in the face of extreme emotion’ - but doesn’t mean the person isn’t feeling them. Rather that they are not letting themselves be driven by or controlled by them in the moment, if they do not serve a useful purpose for them.

[andersonpico]

> (especially women)

It's always about that isn't it? Not getting the reaction you want, vilifying your interlocutor, then run crying with fingers in your ears screaming "lalala I didn't want it anyway" and declaring yourself a stoic is really indicative of the type of people who in the present day call themselves stoics.

This whole thread is just a long-winded version of redpill discourse, people who can see past minor adolescent romantic mishaps.

How pathetic is it to still model your whole life after women while pretending to be an isle of self-reliance? Men really are lost.

[triceratops]

I didn't see any vilification of women. Women value sharing and emotional vulnerability. It's how they bond with other women, who make up the bulk of their friends. Men's experiences with other men, the bulk of their friends, often make them wary of being emotionally vulnerable. Hence, naturally, a disconnect when a man and a woman are establishing a relationship.

[zozbot234]

Women value sharing and emotional vulnerability, but typically not from the males in their lives. There is a significant disconnect between average women and genuine male emotions, and males are expected to show emotional resilience and self-control first and foremost precisely to bridge that gap and then allow the 'sharing' to occur unimpeded, though still in a somewhat controlled way.

[watwut]

Are men expected to do so? Male anger is more tolerated then female anger. Also, if you look at men who are popular or get far, they are super emotional - Trump, Musk, Tate heck even Vance and Hengensberg.

Emotions driven males are cultural and political leaders literally now.

[bdangubic]

this is the general insanity of today’s world, today’s leaders would be laughed at as weakest of the weak in vast majority of human history, just absolute weakest men imaginable are “leaders” now…

[triceratops]

> Male anger is more tolerated then female anger

That's only one emotion. What about all the rest?

[nephihaha]

Anger like any other emotion has its place. But it is better to channel it into something productive.

Trump and Musk are men who were born into wealth, and were boosted by mass media for decades, so I don't think they really count. Musk's main tactic has been to take credit for others' R&D.

[amanaplanacanal]

It's possible you are hanging around with the wrong women.

[watwut]

OP blamed women for supposedly complaining that men dont open up. Men simultaneously have natural friendships with other men, but it is women fault men do not open up.

Por op, women are at wrong when they want men to talk (which is outrageous ask), but also cause of men not talking. Which includes men not talking to other men, which is also fault of women.

[triceratops]

> OP blamed women for supposedly complaining that men dont open up

Correct. And often accurate.

> it is women fault men do not open up

I don't think OP said that.

> Por op, women are at wrong when they want men to talk

Nor that.

> Which includes men not talking to other men, which is also fault of women

Nor that.

[lazide]

Never did I say such a thing at all.

[dennis_jeeves2]

>> (especially women)

>It's always about that isn't it?

>How pathetic is it to still model your whole life after women while pretending to be an isle of self-reliance? Men really are lost.

If I were to hazard a guess: he said it in the passing. You read into it a little too much.

[lazide]

Frankly, a large portion of these replies feel like some pretty clear cut projection. It’s impressive.

[dennis_jeeves2]

Yes, it's projection for sure. A large number of men appear to need validation from women. Pathetic. I guess from an evolutionary perspective it had to that way. Men who didn't need that validation worked themselves out of the gene pool.

[lazide]

It depends on the degree.

Completely ignoring what everyone thinks and doing your own thing is a good way to get in a very dangerous situation from a basic-life-needs perspective. And with women being a bit over half the population, saying ‘fuck it’ to what half the population wants, especially if you’re picking fights with them, is quite dangerous - even if they are not 100%.

But you know who can handle dangerous, and doesn’t need validation from the population (in that form) to get what they want and have their needs met?

The actual king.

It’s a high risk, high reward (potentially) strategy. Better be good (and actually strong) if you want to not need to be liked.

What I think we’ve been seeing play out is entire generations of men who learned that the best strategy was to be liked by women so the women would do all the work to support them. Which seems to have worked quite well for many of them for awhile.

But now people are burning out, and the ‘easy wins’ from the prior approach (or just lifestyle creep/inflation!) is causing more real and visible difficulty - and the situation is indeed getting more difficult. We even have clear predators showing up and operating in the open, with no one stopping them.

There needs to be more than just vibes and following the rules for things to work out now, and a different approach is needed.

We’ll see what ends up shaking out, eh?

One thing is clear though - if society won’t accept someone stepping up and punching someone in the face or worse (even if it is to protect them), you’ll eventually end up with a bunch of predators who will do whatever they want without fear taking advantage of society.

[nephihaha]

I've been vulnerable in that sense a number of times. It was not a good or pleasant thing. Why would I wish to celebrate that?