[jewayne]

Are you insinuating that childless people never fully mature? Because as a childless person I've noticed that a lot of the distance I felt with my friends with kids disappeared as soon as their kids were grown. Essentially we're all childless now, and think of the world in the same terms.

[javier123454321]

It's not a given, but a personal anecdote is that there simply hasn't been a situation in my life prior to kids that required such a sustained focus on the happiness and wellbeing of another person before kids. It really is a type of growth that would be dare say impossible to duplicate without kids. But of course, I could say that I've never had to live through war and don't think that I could really say that I've built the fortitude that that experience gives you, so the point might be moot. Just to say, kids really give you a perspective, that choosing to be childless does not, while being childless is a perspective that all people with kids got.

[jewayne]

> It really is a type of growth that would be dare say impossible to duplicate without kids.

Perhaps, but as a childless adult who had to take over my parents' affairs as their physical and cognitive health declined, I marvel at the wonderful hits of dopamine parents get as they watch their children grow. It's an adorable perspective on life that I didn't get to share as my mother gradually forgot who she was.

[derangedHorse]

> while being childless is a perspective that all people with kids got

This is a naive view of the world. Being childless is a qualitatively different experience for those in different walks of life. A childless financially unstable young adult will have a very different experience than that of a childless financially stable middle-aged adult.

[javier123454321]

I mean, yeah at the end we're all individuals living qualitatively different lives. However, you can get a very close approximation by say dropping your kids off at their grandparents. Even during babysitting, you get nothing close to the experience of having to constantly reprioritize towards another that depends on you and giving them the tools to become independent adults capable of doing it themselves and going into the world, at least by default you don't. I feel like caveating that the human experience will be different and there are a thousand ways to add nuance to the conversation but the generalization definitely holds.

[anthonypasq]

i think its incredibly difficult for a male to truly become a man without children. it is very easy and seductive to be a manchild forever, whereas society seems to force women to grow up. And its certainly possible for a father to remain a manchild, but i think without that kind of responsibility and focus of having to mentor and keep another human alive its difficult to fully mature.

edit: I am a man

[inanutshellus]

I don't think it's as-different-as-it-used-to-be for men and women now but I agree with the sentiment.

Becoming an engaged father shifted my perspective on who I am, changed opinions on societal matters, and made me feel like the person I was -- despite, from a young age, spending non-trivial amounts of time on contemplating morality and society and considering myself as a youth to be "mature for my age" -- was a selfish git.

I went from "c'mon what's the harm"-ing naysayers to "HEY think big picture! LONG term!" on SO many aspects of life.

The man I was would not get along with the father I am.

Your statement won't be popular, but I agree that, statistically-speaking, it's an overt intellectual "next stage".

[Gooblebrai]

Can you clarify what does it mean to "become a man"?

[potato3732842]

Seriously can't tell if this is satire.

[aprilthird2021]

I don't think it's satire. It makes some kind of sense even if I don't agree with it

[mebizzle]

This has to be satire right?

You don't need to have kids to nut up and take responsibility for yourself and others.

[anthonypasq]

notice how I didn't say that

[mapontosevenths]

I can accept that the brain changes after becoming a parent.

I'm not convinced it's automatically, or even usually, for the better. Many of the parents I know are deeply and profoundly unhappy.

[jewayne]

> Many of the parents I know are deeply and profoundly unhappy.

As a childless person, I believe this is a societal problem, not a biological one. We've broken apart the tribe and made just two people (at most) responsible for most of child rearing. And worse, we pretend the parents are directly responsible for a child's safety and development at all times, even though we all know some kids are just way easier or harder to raise, right out of the box.

[grvdrm]

Smart take. Parenting used to be more communal in some ways. Now it's up to two (maybe) working parents to deal with kids.

43-yr-old parent of 2. I love them. They're amazing. But there are so many challenging moments. So many.

In those deep/profound moments of stress, I try to remind myself that the only thing I really need to do is stay calm. Allowed to have emotions, course.

But to execute some level of calm really helps resolve so much of what you experience.

[erfgh]

Maybe they are unhappy but on the flip side, most people with children will tell you that if you haven't been a parent you don't know what happiness is. The happiness of being a parent is just unimaginable, cannot compare with anything else.

[jewayne]

Strangely enough, I think I do understand. As near as I can tell, life's two greatest pleasures are 1. Love (both loving and being loved) 2. Voluntary hardship

I mean, what is parenthood if not love and voluntary hardship?

On the other hand, I think you are describing your subjective experience. I've talked with some "one-and-done" parents who deeply love their child, but wouldn't want another one if you paid them.

[erfgh]

Parenthood being the most intense happiness possible is not my subjective experience. It is probably the most obvious fact in the world, literally if it wasn't true human societies would be radically different.

[jewayne]

Interesting, given the decline in birth rate that seems to be the inevitable consequence of widespread prosperity.

"Happiness" is one of those words that has thousands of different definitions, so I would frame it this way: Parents almost always describe their children as the greatest joy in their lives, but (in America at least) they also generally express more dissatisfaction and frustration with their lives than childless people.

[saalweachter]

With the amount of sleep new parents aren't getting, I'd be shocked if there weren't changes to the brain.

[philipwhiuk]

I think it's not about maturity just about socio- and bio-logically induced re-prioritisation.

[crims0n]

Nobody can answer this, because nobody can have the full experience of both being a parent and being childless.

[integralid]

No, I'm not insinuating anything.

The authors charted human brain and divided it into "eras" where they saw significant changes based on age. Major life events can affect brain structure, and becoming a parent is one of the most important adult life events. Becoming a parent in early 30s is common. Just these facts combined mean that being in early 30s correlates with brain changes somehow. The authors explicitly mention that they know about this, and that they didn't control for this it yet.

Back to your question, I never said anything about maturing. It is a well-known fact, that female brain changes after childbirth. There is also research that suggests that first-time fathers brain changes too. This doesn't necessarily mean becoming more mature.

[pbhjpbhj]

>Becoming a parent in early 30s is common.

Retiring in late 60s. If you make it, becoming too infirm in body to get around in 80s.

These seem like brain changes at these transitions are more likely to be effects rather than causes.