[fauigerzigerk]

>...or to suddenly require network access...

That's the most baffling thing to me. There is simply no option to remove network permissions from any app on my Pixel phone.

It's one of the reasons why I avoid using mobile apps whenever I can.

[uyzstvqs]

It's weird because GrapheneOS does have this. Networking is a permission on Android, but stock Android doesn't give you the setting.

[dns_snek]

I believe that permission is currently "leaky". The app can't access the network but it can use Google Play services to display ads.

I believe that would theoretically allow exfiltration of data but I don't understand all of the details behind this behavior and how far it goes.

[OrangeMusic]

Google wants 0 friction for apps to display ads.

[fauigerzigerk]

So does Apple apparently.

[sharperguy]

What incentive is there for OEMs to not add this option though? Does Google refuse to veriy their firmware if they offer this feature?

[Arnt]

The network permission was displayed in the first versions of Android, then removed. I heard (hearsay alert) at the time that it was because so many apps needed it, and they wanted to get rid of always-yes questions. IIRC this happened before the rise of in-app advertising.

If people always answer yes, they grow tired and eventually don't notice the question. I've seen it happen with "do you want to overwrite the previous version of the document you're editing, which you saved two minutes ago?" At that point your question is just poisoning the well. Makes sense, but still, hearsay alert.

[fauigerzigerk]

As far as I'm concerned they can grant this permission by default. I just want the power to disable it.

A while ago I wanted to scan the NFC chip in my passport. Obviously, I didn't want this information to leave my device.

There are many small utility apps and games that have no reason to require network access. So "need" is not quite the right word here. They _want_ network access and they _want_ to be able to bully users into granting it.

That's a weird justification for granting it by default. But I wouldn't care if I could disable it.

[Arnt]

Android doesn't grant this by default, strictly speaking. Rather, an application can enable it by listing it in the application manifest. Most permissions require a question to to the user.

Did you find a suitable app? I don't really remember, but https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nxp.taginf... might suit you.

[fauigerzigerk]

I did find one but it was years ago so I don't remember.

[u8080]

Could have been easily solved by granting it by default, but I doubt that was original intent.

[Arnt]

Well, the original intent was to ask the user for permission at installation time, which turned out to be a poor idea after a while. Perhaps you mean that it would have been simple to change the API in some particular way, while retaining compatibility with existing apps? If I remember the timeline correctly, which is far from certain, this happened around the same time as Android passed 100k apps, so a fairly strong compatibility requirement.

[u8080]

I mean, just make it "Granted" by default and give user ability to control it. Permissions API was already broken few times(i.e. Location for bluetooth and granular Files permissions)

[cesarb]

> Does Google refuse to veriy their firmware if they offer this feature?

If a manufacturer doesn't follow the Android CDD (https://source.android.com/docs/compatibility/cdd), Google will not allow them to bundle Google's closed source apps (which include the Google Play store). It was originally a measure to prevent fragmentation. I don't know whether this particular detail (not exposing this particular permission) is part of the CDD.

[rickdeckard]

It's not explicitly part of the CDD, but implicitly. The device must support the Android permissions model and is only allowed to extend this implementation using OWN permissions (in a different namespace than 'android'), but not allowed to deviate from it.

INTERNET is a "normal permission", automatically granted at install time if declared in the manifest. OEMs cannot change the grant behavior without breaking compatibility because:

The CDD explicitly states that the Android security model must remain intact. Any deviation would fail CTS (Compatibility Test Suite) and prevent Play certification.

[rickdeckard]

Well, apart from the OEM violating the Android Compatibility Definition Document (CDD), failing the Compatibility Test Suite (CTS) and thus not getting their device Play-certified (so not being able to preload all the Google services, there is an economical impact as well:

As OEM you want Carriers to sell your device above everything else, because they are able to sell large volumes.

Carriers make money using network traffic, Google is paying Revenue-Share for ads to Carriers (and OEMs of certain size). Carriers measure this as part of the average revenue per user (ARPU).

--> The device would be designed to create less ARPU for the Carrier and Google and thus be less attractive for the entire ecosystem.

[bmacho]

It is solvable from user space.

E.g. TrackerControl https://github.com/TrackerControl/tracker-control-android can do it, it is a local vpn which sees which application is making a request and blocks it.

You can write your own version of it if you don't trust them.

[lopis]

I've been using a similar VPN solution. It works great for apps that absolutely should not be connected, like my keyboard. But it has an obvious downside: you can't use a VPN on your phone while you're using that.

[raxxorraxor]

Some apps would use this for loopback addresses, which as far as I know will then need network permission. The problem here is the permission system itself because ironically Google Play is full of malicious software.

And neither Android nor iOS a safer than modern Desktop systems. On the contrary because leaking data is its own security issue.

[LtWorf]

Wasn't the loopback address recently used maliciously?

[salawat]

Yes. Facebook/Meta was using a locally hosted proxy to get info smuggled back without using routes that are increasingly obstructed by things like ad blockers if I recall correctly.

https://securityonline.info/androids-secret-tracking-meta-ya...

Search string for DDG: Meta proxy localhost data exfiltration