[kossTKR]

Your comment is the actual prowar propaganda though in my europeean eyes.

The US is worse than China in many aspects, from forever wars to climate over colonialism to fascism and support for an ongoing extremely violent genocide on over a hundred thousand civilians, - where is China geonociding hundreds a week right now? Yeah nowhere, but the US is doing that every decade.

Incredible to see this angle that 'the good guys' are bowing down to bad China in this context when you have so much poverty, political repression and lack of gay rights, abortion etc in many right wing states to straight up hyper right wing terrorism targeting vulnerable populations every year.

[sabatonfan]

I feel like in geo-politics. No country can be good.

Personally, I feel like america still has (had) hope with zohran mamdani but after the recent american shutdown, I would consider democratic party to be an extension of republican party or not doing anything radical except bernie,aoc, zohran and some other people.

I feel like America could have a hope to swing whereas china doesn't imo.

although, I feel like what is happening is that people made (short term?) decisions earlier generations earlier which lead us to where we are today where any country over-all needs a radical change as both europe and america and a lot of other countries need to radicalize what they are doing to give hope to the youngsters

Personally I feel like we shouldn't care much about US or chinese products but rather the ideologies of the product creators if we are worried about things and I think this is one of the reasons I love open source so much.

[kossTKR]

Hope to swing? The US has killed many more people in wars of conquest than China in the last 50 years. So i really see both as problematic but the US is still much more violent geopolitically. Ie worse in my eyes, Israels latest genocide being a creszendo on an already horrible track record.

[NickC25]

>The US is worse than China in many aspects, from forever wars to climate over colonialism to fascism and support for an ongoing extremely violent genocide on over a hundred thousand civilians.

My man, the US and China are more or less the exact same here with the exception of forever wars.

Climate? China pollutes like crazy, and so does the US. Colonialism? Maybe not in the same vein but China does engage in actions to other nations, such as Macau, Hong Kong, and Taiwan that could be classified as colonialism. Fascism? Well yeah both countries are pretty much openly fascist right now. Support for an ongoing extremely violent genocide of over a hundred thousand people? Yeah the US and China are both complicit there. In fact, in China, you're speaking about the regime itself, with context to the ongoing genocide of Uyghur people.

[kossTKR]

Yes its imperial logic so why arent you saying that to OP's bizzare US = peace and gay rights comment?

And the Uyghur repression is no genocide compared to Palestine thats complete US misinformation and frankly a sinister comparison - the US is much much more violent, again look at Palestine, before that literally 30+ wars for resources and markets with millions of civilians dead.

Im not naive about China but this US = beacon of human rights angle is frankly gross to me.

China has many problems but americans are literally worse and you wanting to boycut due to human rights, is this a joke?

[AndrewKemendo]

No the chinese people, most of whom do not have a ICE car, do not produce those carbon numbers

China is where the west exported pollution to by the fact that we pushed most of the deadly and dangerous production and manufacturing there.

So all the west does is launder pollution through east and southeastern asia.

[rafabulsing]

How does that excuse China's pollution? They still chose to do that, no one forced them to. I do agree that other countries are guilty of China's pollution as well, but that certainly does not excuse China choice to do that pollution laundering for them.

[AndrewKemendo]

It doesn’t. The right answer is that both China and the West suck and should have worked together to reduce consumption rather than accept the waste-surveillance capitalism system they both accelerated from 1970-present

It’s like trying to reduce prostitution, when society is demanding more sex, do you jail the prostitutes or the tricks?

If there’s no demand for sex workers then there’s no sex worker market. However if nobody is struggling to survive, then theres no supply.

You need to end the desire for consumption in order to eliminate authoritarianism

[rafabulsing]

Right. So what was your point when you replied to a commenter saying the US and China are equally bad, pollution wise, with

> No the chinese people, most of whom do not have a ICE car, do not produce those carbon numbers

That sounds to me like you're saying that China is not as bad as the US, because the pollution in China comes in some part from laundered pollution from the US. If that's not the case, could you explain what you meant?

[AndrewKemendo]

You can’t do carbon production attribution the same between a consumption and a production nation at the per capita level

Someone paying to fly a private jet and a slave putting coal into a furnace aren’t the same

[graeme]

>where is China geonociding hundreds a week right now?

Xinjiang. They put people in camps and take extensive efforts to prevent births, to eliminate the Uighur population over time.

[kossTKR]

Yeah i've looked into it and its bad still much much less violent than the over 100.000 civilians, kids and mothers killed in Palestine so whats up with this weird focus when you guys are littersally killing muslims by the thousands every other year with no remorse?

Do you condemn Israel? And if not - then what even is this concern of yours? Both are bad but Israel is much worse according to litterally all major NGOs.

Seriously do you condemn US imperialism and the genocide in Gaza too?

[graeme]

I didn't condemn or approve of anyone, I just answered your question. You're making a lot of assumptions.

You're focussing exclusively on violence. If Israel adopted China's Xinjiang methods they would:

1. Take direct administrative control over Gaza

2. Place any man even remotely linked to violence or Islam in a prison camp and use them as prison labour to produce products

3. Monitor all women and prevent them from having births

But, violence would go down. In Xinjiang the Muslim population is shrinking as the authorities prevent reproduction.

Following your logic you are saying you would find this less objectionable. Is that actually the case? I suspect not.

I write this to hopefully expand your view that more than one situation can be objectionable, that not everyone is American or Israeli and it is possible to analyze a situation on its own merits and say "huh that's bad".

China goes to great lengths to minimize actual violence, which minimizes attention, which lets them focus on shrinking the population of Uighurs. I doubt Israel could actually do this in Gaza, but I think it would be worse if they did.

[kossTKR]

So you don't condemn israels ethnic cleansing but are very worried about muslim minorities in China that are repressed?

I am totally on board condemning China, but you aren't with Israel and that says it all - and i don't believe you actually are concerned about this muslim minority if you aren't at least as horrified by Israeli actual warcrimes and an ongoing genocide.

They already monitor everyone, they already control all markets they dont just prevent births they kill kids in an ethnic cleansing according to experts at the ICC, Amnesty International, Doctors without Borders and many others.

Again, unfathomable to me that you can list "they prevent births" as worse than murdering over 40.000 kids in a few years in Gaza and 100.000 civilians according to the newest numbers - that's by all measures worse than what China's doing and why every respectable NGO and expert groups are talking about Israel and not the Uyghurs at the moment.

Why are you not condemning Israels/US ethnic cleansing when i'm condemning chinas actions on multiple fronts?

[yeahforsureman]

Looks like you almost have this habit of explaining/talking about things 'as a European', particularly when bringing up USA in the context of international relations like now...

I guess it's OK — I'm European too, for example — but it does seem like you're doing it to imply that your views are somehow (at least relatively more) popular among, or representative of, well, Europeans. But now that we're making such massive generalisations, I'd claim that well-educated English-speaking Europeans are often likelier to be more familiar with the views and internal debates among Americans than those of many of their fellow Europeans, and that you're probably no exception.

As for your comment, had you not addressed it to 'you Americans', I'd be hard-pressed to tell it apart from a pretty standard-issue American Left (or 'Progressive') rant, perhaps somewhere from the younger and more identitarian part of that crowd, for example (despite some of the quasi-tankie undertones). While I'll admit that scoffing at things like pro-life policies and/or American poverty is certainly easier and more common throughout the political spectra in (Western) Europe, I'd say your cringe-inducing bothsidesism with USA and China falls closer to the crackpot left camp in Europe as well.

Europe contains multitudes, and undoubtedly for some but not all, up until now at least, it has been a bit too easy to comfortably observe and judge things for so long as a world-political bystander from under the US nuclear umbrella, typically further from the Russian border too — whether you were an insular French with casual contempt for all things 'Yankee', a German atomic-phobic pacifist (or worse, a far-right, Pro-Putin knuckle dragger) from that 'European powerhouse' heated with Russian non-renewables, or even a Swede from the world's leading moral superpower, or something like that, anyway... ;)

[keybored]

Us Euros here are all terminally online^W^W well-educated English-speaking citizens. Reader discretion is advised.

[DustinEchoes]

I sometimes wonder what the comments will look like here when China invades/blockades Taiwan, and I suspect they will look a lot like this. Lots of US whataboutism. Note that the OP doesn’t mention the US at all.