[xfour]

Seems like the obvious reason for this is that Mac is now a niche for people that operate computers, where there are likely 6 people that don't for every 1 that does. We keep hearing that the next generation is "true computer" illiterate.

The second reason is likely that there are computers that are 1/3 of the price subsidized by the terrible ad-supported OS installs. (Has anyone tried to setup a MS computer lately, it's an ad-box).

[jajuuka]

You can easily turn the "ads" off though. The only true ad are the start menu ones which is a single toggle in Settings. I have much bigger issues with setup time. I just got a Windows laptop and it took (not exaggerating) 3 hours to finally get to the desktop. Multiple reboots at the POST, then taking forever to download Windows updates and get through all the setup screens. Compared to a Mac setup it's an insanely long time to just use your computer.

That is even not counting the additional Windows updates after you get to the desktop and updates from the OEM. This is also with a Microsoft account while restoring my own settings from OneDrive.

[MrGilbert]

> We keep hearing that the next generation is "true computer" illiterate.

We had that development with cars. 40 years ago, it was common to fix your own car. Nowadays, we have a subscription for seat warmers. The manual tells you to visit the dealer to get your brakes checked. Makes me sad, somehow. But people have choosen this path as a collective.

[ghaff]

People choose what to outsource and, as cars have become more complicated and require more diagnostic equipment, they go to a dealer/mechanic. Personally, I've never done a lot of personal car mechanic work.

On the other hand, I've done my own cooking more than not.

You make choices about what you do yourself and what you have others do for you.

[giobox]

> cars have become more complicated and require more diagnostic equipment

For the consumable stuff every car owner has to deal with, nothing has really changed in 40 years, honestly! A brake service is still done the exact same way, same with virtually all the fluid services.

I just find far more people parrot "modern cars are so complicated" today and don't even consider that in fact, it is relatively simple to change a brake pad and disc, or your own oil, perhaps an air filter, even on most brand new cars. Fluids filters and brakes are like 90% of most people's maintenance needs nowadays.

YouTube has also massively lowered the barrier to working on cars, given there are multiple easy to follow guides for just about any car service for any car model you can think of.

[jajuuka]

These are all relatively simple TO YOU. You are not everyone though. Some people lack the mobility, strength or even time to do these things. Some people just don't want to get dirty working on their car. Some people don't have the space to do these kinds of maintenance.

Not everyone needs to know how to compile their own kernel, build their own furniture or clean their laundry perfectly. Everyone has their own interests and areas of expertise they want to delve in to. Now I can screw up a brake job working on it all day and rewatching YouTube videos wondering what I missed, or I can take it to a shop and get it done in an hour for cheap. That's just me though. I spent a lot of time working on cars in my youth and I'm just tired of spending my time on it. I don't like it and I am more than willing to pay someone who does like it to do it.

[dghlsakjg]

> These are all relatively simple TO YOU. You are not everyone though. Some people lack the mobility, strength or even time to do these things. Some people just don't want to get dirty working on their car. Some people don't have the space to do these kinds of maintenance.

That is irrelevant to the argument he is making that things have not gotten harder in the last 40 years in regards to car maintenance that you can do at home.

His point is that the perception that car maintenance has gotten harder for the average joe does not match reality. Almost all of the things that need periodic on modern cars are more or less the same as they were in 1985.

[kshacker]

No, I think the other side has a point. If I were doing 10 services on my car, I would have muscle memory of a lot of things. If I am doing only brakes, and maybe another thing, I do not have that muscle memory. While the work may not be harder, the familiarity is gone for a lot of people.

BTW just before Covid, or during Covid, I took a car mechanic course from the local De Anza college - no hands on, so that's why I think it was during Covid. But after 5 years and no experience, I have forgotten except the abstract concepts. Then imagine people who never had to look under the hood -- ever.

[asdff]

Stuff like changing cabin air filter or your own oil takes no additional space beyond the space already occupied by the parked car. You don't even need to lift the car to change the oil in most cases unless the car designers were massochists. Sure, maybe not everyone can get down on their back anymore, but that shouldn't be an issue for able bodied people.

[vczf]

Doing your own oil changes is not worth the hassle when considering the risk of a spill and the difficulty of legal disposal—unless you have a fancy engine that needs frequent oil changes.

Cabin air filter and wiper fluid, sure. Headlights and taillights used to be a no-brainer, but now those are often sealed LED assemblies and difficult to access as well.

[duskwuff]

You're overstating how easy these tasks are for many people. Doing brake pads/rotors or changing oil requires a driveway, some tools, and (for oil) a way to collect and dispose of the old fluids. Not everyone has access to those things - for instance, people who live in an apartment complex may not have the space to work on their car.

(Air filters are, admittedly, pretty easy.)

[asdff]

You can change your oil wherever you parked the car. A way to collect the used oil is as easy as an old jug of milk, or the empty bottles from your new oil. Disposal involves finding an autozone or someplace similar and dropping it off for free. In terms of tools you'd need, a $5 dish from autozone to collect the oil, a 10c copper washer for your drain plug, and a socket wrench.

[giobox]

Sure, everything you say was true for many folks 40 years ago too though! My point is, the processes haven't really changed for the common maintenance tasks over this period, people's perception of the difficulty certainly appears to have though.

[stockresearcher]

Actually, in modern times you can buy an oil extraction pump off Amazon for $100, making oil changes so much easier than they were 40 years ago! A lot of [especially European] cars have the filter accessible from the top, meaning that you can change oil in 15 minutes in any apartment parking space by doing little more than popping the hood!

[itsoktocry]

Air filters are easy, but so what? They are even easier for the mechanic when my car is in the shop for semiannual maintenance.

[pram]

Changing a pad/disc/caliper isn’t “hard” but it’s time consuming and very messy. Most people probably don’t find spending 2 hours getting the car jacked, tires off, etc to be a good or enjoyable use of time!

[tbirdny]

I wish it took 2 hours. For me it's spend 2 hours shopping for the right part, finding it for a good price, and ordering it. Then spend an hour watching youtube videos for how to do it. Then spend 4 hours gathering the right tools, getting the car jacked, tires off, etc., then put everything away, and clean up. That's the best case. I could get the wrong part, my car looks different than the videos, I do it wrong, or break something. I recently replaced my front brakes. I maybe saved $400. I'm proud of myself. I kind of enjoyed it, but it's hard to justify.

[ghaff]

A lot of people here are probably equally proud that they built a a DIY PC from scratch which I did many times. But just don't have an interest in doing any longer and screwed up a bunch along the way.

I also choose not to mow my lawn at this point. I'm perfectly capable of doing so but just prefer not to do so,

[ASalazarMX]

> it is very simple to change a brake pad and disc

I can attest that changing a brake pad is mission impossible level without the proper tools. The tools and experience are what make it look easy, for someone that has both.

[itsoktocry]

I can also bake my own bread, make my own clothes and build my own furniture. But I choose to spend my time elsewhere.

What is so noble about changing your oil?

[Jnr]

Except many new cars are locked down in software, for example not allowing to release rear parking brakes without authorized service subscription, keeping the electronic keys for each VIN unique and stored in the cloud. Yes, there are workarounds on releasing the brakes manually but it is a burden.

Also similarly as with iPhones, many cars require connecting to the authorized service to change headlights and other parts since they are paired with the MCU.

I know how to work on my car but I am not able to because someone decided to lock it down.

[rconti]

I don't follow. Every time I drive my car I release the parking brake. On the cars with electronic brakes, you use a button rather than a lever. I'd do it the same way to service the brakes.

[giobox]

A lot of electronic parking brakes do have a service mode. For most modern Fords, there is a procedure, as one example of many:

> https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/quick-answer-electronic-par...

You typically need the piston fully retracted to replace pads, which very rarely happens just by disengaging the park brake.

If you are old enough to have changed a manual handbrake pad, you normally had to screw the piston back in before you could fit the thicker new pad with a "caliper rewind tool" even if the handbrake was off, the electronic parking brake service mode essentially does this for you, or unblocks the piston permitting a rewind tool to work.

> https://www.thedrive.com/guides-and-gear/how-to-use-a-brake-...

FWIW, I've never found an electronic parking brake I couldn't rewind myself after a few minutes on google.

[jeffbee]

Cars are both more complicated and way more reliable. You used to spend a Sunday changing your plugs and points. Now your car lacks points and if the plugs last less than 100000km it's a disappointment. You used to need new clutch plates on the regular, now nobody ever needs them or if they do need them the car is a total loss because good luck getting to the clutches. On my current car the closest I ever came to working on it was replacing the wiper blades.

[asdff]

They were already this reliable by the 80s and 90s.

Where new cars get shitty is the electronics that get shoehorned in to control systems that were previously controlled by a button or dial.

[tomcam]

Not sure that tracks. Cars became infinitely more complex due to compliance with federal regs and the chicken tax.

[olyjohn]

I mean... cars have definitely gotten more complex since 1964 when the Chicken Tax became a thing...

[rconti]

More complicated and more reliable!

[myvoiceismypass]

Modern cars are also way harder to work on than in the past. You used to be able to buy a Haynes manual for every major car and could do most of the repair work if you wanted! Nowadays, not so much. Specialized tools galore, tearing apart the whole car for minor hidden things... This one is far more on the car manufacturers than consumers IMHO. I am also sad about the death of the manual transmission. Glad to have gotten one of the final years that Mini will be producing them!

[SkyeCA]

They are harder to work on in the past, but people have developed the belief that they're actually impossible to work on. A huge amount of car repair is still doable by the average person.

[genghisjahn]

Cars are a lot safer now. People routinely walk away from collisions that would have killed everyone in the vehicle back in 70s. So there is some gain to the trade off.

[much-to-learn]

Not if you're a pedestrian.

[genghisjahn]

According to this, pedestrians were dropping until around 2007, which I believe was the year of the iPhone. One could posit that distracted walking has increased pedestrian fatalities since 2007 and not car size.

https://www.iihs.org/research-areas/fatality-statistics/deta...

[D-Coder]

"Cars are a lot safer now" does not seem related to "40 years ago, it was common to fix your own car" to me.

[lostlogin]

> Makes me sad

On one hand, yes. But also, cars are now an appliance. They rarely break, can be bought quite cheaply (if that’s what you want) and consume little time. I like this.

[asdff]

Except they are 2020s appliances with bells and whistles and reinventing the wheel for no reason with electronic wizzbangs and dohickeys and layers and layers of complexity. Your car in the 90s was the appliance. Simple electronic system. Reliable simple ICE engine. Simple gearbox. Easy to work on which means even if you don't work on your own car it helps you, because labor takes less time and therefore repair shop bills are lower. Parts back then were widely shared across a manufacturers lineup so readily available and relatively cheap. 4 cylinder economy car was practically a commodity back then.

[lostlogin]

I drive a second generation Leaf.

We will see if it lives up to the promise, but the dealer said ‘don’t bother’ when I asked about serving.

So far that has held true, but it’s early years.

[Terr_]

> We keep hearing that the next generation is "true computer" illiterate.

I 'member when "personal" computers were going to be a kind of capital-equipment made available to the masses, creating new levels of autonomy and personal control over our own lives, working for our goals and interests... Whoops.

Folks like Stallman did warn me though.

[doctorpangloss]

It also helps that they are moving phone financing off their balance sheet and onto AT&T’s, where people who don’t know anything think AT&T is giving away iPhone 17s right now, when of course, actually, Apple is.

The better question is, who do you know pays full price up front for an iPhone with no discounts? Only people who destroy or lose their current iPhone? The parents of teenagers giving the teenager the old phone and replacing theirs?

[weikju]

I pay full price, and use cheap MVNOs for phone service. Ends up being much cheaper and no mobile carrier shenanigans polluting my phones, sim lock, etc.

[gigatexal]

Same. I buy the phone I can afford. And then I pay for cell coverage I can afford. And then I go about my life living it logically.

[doctorpangloss]

You didn't trade in your old phone?

[weikju]

I do trade in with Apple, or resell it.

[doctorpangloss]

So.... did you pay full price at Apple? (No.)

[weikju]

Picking nits. It's a distinction without meaning compared to the original statement and response (buying from carriers vs buying directly from Apple)

[rconti]

I pay full price up front. Just bought an iPhone 17 pro and sold the 16 pro on Swappa. I've never found a trade-in deal that was better than selling a phone myself, and the 1 or 2 times I've tried it, I've ended up frustrated by having a locked phone, and paid it off early anyway.

The big carriers hide the phone in the price but you're still paying it. I just use US Mobile unlimited plans for $35/mo, plus it gives me free international service which was the real advantage for me. Paying 1/3 the annual service plan and $0/day int'l roaming instead of $15/day.

[ceejayoz]

There's also the fact that it's tough to share a smartphone like you can a computer. I suspect Apple hasn't made user switching a thing on iOS for this reason.

[decafninja]

My wife has been without a desktop or laptop for more than a decade. Her primary computing devices are her phone and iPad.

For doing tasks like online banking or booking plane tickets, I find the mobile experience frustrating and therefore do it on my laptop. She finds the laptop clunky and finds mobile much easier.

[ReptileMan]

>We keep hearing that the next generation is "true computer" illiterate.

This is logical result of walled gardens.