[marcuskane2]

For years, we've talked about how much of the workforce was "bullshit jobs". HN would be full of incredulous comments from people confused by the headcount at various companies, wondering what all those people were doing every day.

Now we're in the worst case scenario- hundreds of thousands of middle-class "bullshit jobs" are disappearing, but rather than being replaced by a wave of productive jobs (say, in clean energy, non-polluting manufacturing, regenerative agriculture, medical technology, biotech, public transportation infrastructure, housing construction, etc) we're just seeing unemployment, underemployment and government policies that are openly hostile to anything helpful for society.

America could probably still be saved by a "Green New Deal" type of program which spurs massive investment and employment in industries which have positive externalities. Things don't exactly look like that's likely in the next few years, but maybe the 2024 election was the wake-up call the Democrats needed to reorient away from the "woke" social issues and reengage with the average American voter.

[ssully]

Biden did exactly what you are asking for in “massive investment and employment in industries with positive externalities” and your average voter didn’t give a shit.

[marbro]

Maybe that's because the voters are not impressed by government central planning.

[marcuskane2]

Kinda.

Maybe I'm too optimistic and we're just doomed, but I think the average voter would have cared more if a handful of things had gone differently.

For starters of course, Biden's rapid cognitive decline and the poor handling of it from the DNC made a mess of everything and prevented a unified platform message to tout the successes of those programs.

Also, the timelines were tough to make work for short-term political gain. There's necessarily going to be a span of time between a law being passed to eg, create tax incentives or loan programs to support building a factory and when those factories are actually built, operational and impacting the economy.

Finally, most of the programs from the Biden administration were hamstrung by trying to jam every left wing and liberal ideal into every program. Instead of saying "Go build a battery factory" they said "Go build a battery factory that's owned by racial minorities and run by women and employs union workers paid at a minimum of 110% of the prevailing wage and provides childcare onsite and doesn't negatively impact local housing affordability and ..." until the whole thing became impossible to implement.

Basically, I think an Ezra Klein type of Democrat could succeed. To be determined if that's the direction the party goes though.

[MontyCarloHall]

>thousands of middle-class "bullshit jobs" are disappearing, but rather than being replaced by a wave of productive jobs [...] we're just seeing unemployment, underemployment.

Jobs are neither fungible nor mutually exclusive; there is no reason to assume that someone working in a bullshit job would thrive in a non-bullshit job that contributes to society in more productive ways, nor does the existence of bullshit jobs prevent people from working non-bullshit jobs. I hate to say it, but perhaps many people are employed in bullshit jobs because they are not capable of anything more challenging.

[tock]

> I hate to say it, but perhaps many people are employed in bullshit jobs because they are not capable of anything more challenging.

Because bullshit jobs paid mode. Your average engineer working on ad targeting or at a hedge fund makes a lot more than working in say medicine.

[MontyCarloHall]

"Bullshit job" has a specific meaning that's less about being in a pointless field-of-work (like adtech or many parts of fintech) and more about occupying a pointless role, regardless of the field. David Graeber (the originator of the term) gave the following examples [0]:

— Flunkies, who serve to make their superiors feel important, e.g., receptionists, administrative assistants, door attendants, store greeters

— Goons, who act to harm or deceive others on behalf of their employer, or to prevent other goons from doing so, e.g., lobbyists, corporate lawyers, telemarketers, public relations specialists

— Duct tapers, who temporarily fix problems that could be fixed permanently, e.g., programmers repairing shoddy code, airline desk staff who calm passengers with lost luggage

— Box tickers, who create the appearance that something useful is being done when it is not, e.g., survey administrators, in-house magazine journalists, corporate compliance officers, academic administration

— Taskmasters, who create extra work for those who do not need it, e.g., middle management, leadership professionals

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs

[tock]

My point stands. Its an incentive game. People work in BS fields because they pay more. People work BS jobs because again: they pay well. There is no incentive to work somewhere else.

[shubb]

We live in a very complex system, beyond any one persons comprehension. Some people think devolved decision making allocating resources to things like, advertising better, is the most efficient way of allocating resources. The invisible hand. How much is bullshit and how much is just beyond your awareness? If you were king and allocating so the work, would it be better? For who? I'm doubtful about bullshit jobs.

[fullshark]

I suspect you don’t actually hate to say it