[BJones12]

Definitions matter. It's possible for an organization to redefine "acutely malnourished" as less than 4000 Cal/day, and then use that to make an accusation. Is that reasonable? No, because that does not match reality. It's unreasonable to criticize pushback on changing definitions because definitions should be pushed toward reality.

[basisword]

As you say definitions matter - so let's not invent hypothetical scenarios to dismiss points.

Israel was not arguing about the definition of 'acute malnourished'. The threshold for famine is 15%. The IPC said it had just hit 16% and was thus a famine. Israel was arguing that other data showed it was only 12.2-13.5% and therefore not a famine. When you get to the point of arguing "only 12% of the children are starving, not 16%" you probably shouldn't bother.

[JumpCrisscross]

> When you get to the point of arguing "only 12% of the children are starving, not 16%" you probably shouldn't bother

Devil's advocate: we grow enough food to feed every human. What we lack is the logistics. War disrupts logistics. Food insecurity rising is thus, unfortunately, an expected (and probably unmitigatable) consequence of war.

That's why we have to define a line, based on history and capability, that sets what's a tolerable amount of starvation. And what is not.

[istjohn]

Famine is not an inevitable outcome of war. It is the inevitable outcome of Israel's deliberate actions to limit access to food, which are well-documented.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Famine is not an inevitable outcome of war

Food insecurity is. Famine is not. The latter is statistically defined, which is why we have levels and people arguing about which side of that level they stand.

[Dylan16807]

Fine, remove the word famine.

Acute malnourishment going above 10% is not an inevitable outcome of war. This was deliberate action.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Acute malnourishment going above 10% is not an inevitable outcome of war

I don't know enough about this topic to debate levels. I'd just point out that you're still specifying a level, and that level can't be zero if it's going to be taken seriously.

[brigandish]

You've chosen a number there, conveniently lower than the one the Israelis picked. I must say, an argument that convenient is not persuasive.

To address it properly we must start with whether anything above zero is "acceptable" (in the sense of a level that would accord with the realities of increased food insecurity in a war zone, not morally).

If it is, then a level needs to be set, and if the level is met then I would expect the parties in question to argue about it, if only because of the propaganda value, let alone the truth of the claim.

The claims about mistakes in the data, or presentation of the data, are here[1], I am unable to tell if they are right or not, but that is not the point of this conversation. The point is, whether their should be stages at all, and if so, should the results of reports be scrutinised?

I would say yes to both.

[1] https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/gaza-famine-claim-based-o...

[Alupis]

It has also been well-documented that the controlling interest within Gaza also limits access to food - of it's own citizens/people.

While it seems undeniable the people of Gaza are experiencing food scarcity - we cannot lay blame soley at the foot of Israel here. That would be grossly disengenous and an outright falsehood.

[JumpCrisscross]

> we cannot lay blame soley at the foot of Israel here

For the famine, yes we can. Let the aid in. Let Hamas steal it. Now you can blame Hamas. The fact that we have zero evidence of Hamas stealing the current aid makes it entirely one side's fault.

[Alupis]

Aid did get in, and Hamas did steal it. The media ignored it, so the narrative continues status-quo.

Israel has no reason to support Hamas and their efforts here. If Hamas wasn't stealing all of the aid earlier in this conflict, perhaps aid would still be flowing into Gaza.

It doesn't seem so absolute/cut-and-dry like you try to make it.

[db48x]

Hamas regularly brags in their recruitment videos about how much food they have, and how their fighters get to eat as much as they want.

[tguvot]

according to published data above 80 percent of shipments are intercepted: https://app.un2720.org/tracking

[ipaddr]

There is enough food to feed the children but Israel won't let the food in. Not logistics someone trying to kill them and claiming to be the victim.

[falconroar]

Are Gazans receiving adequate nutrition? If not, why are we discussing semantics?

[wat10000]

Does this particular (supposed) definition change matter here? Because if it doesn't, pushback by the aggressor is heinous and obviously disingenuous even if your abstract love of accuracy means you happen to agree with the objection.

[BJones12]

From my understanding there is an argument about whether 12% or 16% of children meet a certain threshold of food availability, which affects whether or not it is called a famine. One is regarded as not a famine, one is regarded as a famine, and there is argument over what data to use.

And the definition does matter, because 'famine' has the meaning of a certain level of bad thing happening. If we do not preserve the meaning, then the word will not have a meaning, then we have no more word to talk about that bad thing, so we will pay no attention to averting or fixing the bad thing because we don't have the literal ability to talk about it.

I'm in favor of being able to have a productive discussion about famines and how to avoid them, so I'm in favor of having a word for 'famine' with a clearly defined meaning.

[wat10000]

Ok, so the aggressor is saying “it’s not a famine, we’re only starving 12% of the children.” You do understand that this is not a good faith argument, right? You might care about preserving the meaning of the word but they don’t give the slightest shit about it. They are not trying to preserve the meaning of the word so that we have the ability to talk about it. They are trying to muddy the waters of the actual facts of what is happening so that people talk about whether there is actually a famine or not rather than the fact that a large number of children are starving. Stop being a patsy and doing their work for them.

[JumpCrisscross]

> they don’t give the slightest shit about it

Who cares?

We just watched this nonsense happen with the word genocide. Both sides were careless with it. Now, it's lost meaning. Famine is still a hard line in the sand. All the evidence points to Israel having breached that line. The solution isn't to get rid of the line, it's to point to the line, point to the ground and say you're past the fucking line.

[wat10000]

If "genocide" lost meaning, it's because people got pulled into a debate around the word rather than focusing on the fact that innocent people are being killed in large numbers. Whether "genocide" or "famine" or any other atrocity, the response to "this doesn't actually meet the definition" should be "you're trying to deflect from the atrocities you're committing and I'm not going to fall for it."

[Braxton1980]

The use of percentage here can really mask the scope of a problem.

A village of 100 people where 50% are starving is better than a country of 1,000,000 where 10% are.

[matthewdgreen]

The word “famine” does not have a clearly-defined statistical meaning outside of some very specific circumstances. We abhor the idea of famine whether it occurs at 12% or 14% or 23% of children because we see all of these things to be very bad circumstances. One particular organization chose a 15% threshold for a legalistic definition in their framework, and the government is lawyering this because they can lawyer an arbitrary threshold and they think that will help them win some PR points. Thats all this is.

PS Do you really think the number “15%” is some natural value that nature or the Bible or teams of scientists chose to define “famine”? It’s an arbitrary threshold that someone picked because it’s a bit larger than 10% and less than 20% and divisible by the number of digits on the human hand.

[JumpCrisscross]

> It’s an arbitrary threshold

But it’s a threshold. Remove the threshold and we lose accountability. Any level is simultaneously abhorrent and unavoidable.