[j0057]

> Also this will completely disable any new phone OS' being developed. Why would anyone bother when you can't verify your wallet to do anything online.

This already the case today, you can't run your bank's app or government eID apps on anything but Google or Apple devices.

[logifail]

> you can't run your bank's app

I can log in to my bank account using my desktop PC

> government eID apps

I can sign into government websites using my desktop PC and its smart card reader and my government-issued eID smartcard. No smartphone needed.

[okanat]

Not in EU. Many banks mandate you either have an iPhone or Google approved Android as 2FA. Those fucking idiots have killed their own competition options.

[BasilofBasiley]

While everyone took the opportunity to reply to you with "Not in my bank/country/to-my-awareness" This is what's happening in Portugal:

https://old.reddit.com/r/portugal/comments/1msc886/obriga%C3...

Effectively, if the client doesn't download the App, they will never be able to log into the homebanking website again. The bank enforced this and now if you login normally it will redirect to a page where you can download the app or use up one of three remaining chances to login. I am down to two. From now on, I'm only able to use ATM's or go to an actual teller to make payments and such. The app requires that I have a Google account or an Apple account and I think that's just messed up, specially for a Portuguese bank.

The app on the google store is pt.novobanco.nbsmarter if anyone is curious. It has interesting permissions as well.

Edit: This is the landing page (one login left, oh dear...) https://files.catbox.moe/x117iy.png

rsync, here you go:

https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/652314/

[wkat4242]

> While everyone took the opportunity to reply to you with "Not in my bank/country/to-my-awareness" This is what's happening in Portugal:

Well yeah but that's what you get when you make overly broad statements like "not in the EU".

[eikenberry]

You say "The bank"... does this mean Portugal only has one bank? If not, wouldn't this be a good reason so change banks? Maybe to a credit union (bank co-op) if they have those in Portugal as the members generally have much more of a say.

[BasilofBasiley]

When I wrote "the bank" I meant, the bank in question, which is the one mentioned in the URL. Hope this makes it clearer for you.

As for alternatives, yes there are, I'm still figuring which ones do not require an app on the smart-phone, though.

I believe I've found a fair alternative after asking a few friends but, I have to account for other factors as well, like, how secure their infrastructure is.

This is because offline 2FA keyfobs were never that popular in Portugal (to my knowledge), unlike 2FA via SMS which I find less secure that keyfobs, but now with the SCA directives from the EU, most banks are jumping on the App 2FA bandwagon. Some do offer a government issued alternative [0] but it still requires an app. I'd be perfectly happy to sign in with my Citizen's ID card reader but that is also rarely implemented (bank-wise), specially since the Chave Movel Digital app from the government [0].

Bottom line, most major banks are going in one direction (deploying their own apps onto customer devices), while smaller banks are staying put (with SMS 2FA) but their security was never that great. So I'm still prospecting and yes, there's a bank co-op on my list also.

Oh, and by "security" I'm mostly going by feel here. Like, if the web interface is a bit jankie I don't feel secure. I'm not going to look into obfuscated .js and pretend like I know anything about web security.

[0] https://www.autenticacao.gov.pt/a-chave-movel-digital

[GoblinSlayer]

Just use a strong password, then 2fa is redundant.

[rsync]

Can you expand on:

"It has interesting permissions as well ..." ?

I assume a banking app needs (temporary) permission to use the camera for check photos or things of that nature ... and possibly (temporary) use of location data.

I would be alarmed if it requested microphone or access to either contacts or photo storage ...

[BasilofBasiley]

I updated the above comment. Cheers.

[yupyupyups]

My bank (in the EU) has a fully functional website where I can identify myself using an offline 2fa device.

[Fargren]

Yes in EU. I'm in Spain and I sign up to several banks as well as government sites in my desktop PC.

[Retric]

That’s what competition is for. You can still swap banks over such nonsense.

[johnisgood]

Which banks? Which country? How do they check and enforce iPhone / Google wrt. 2FA? Are you referring to TOTP as 2FA?

[okanat]

All banks are required to have "safe" 2FA in the EU by EU regulation. SMS is banned.

Most banks in Germany, Austria and Portugal default to Play Store or App Store apps with OS integrity checks. It seems like the Nordic countries have it a bit better with the ID reader apps. There are sometimes alternatives and some of them require paid subscription.

The apps they require are proprietary. They are not generic TOTP generators. Some of them require biometric approval. Some just logging in and approving a notification. I have seen some generate a form of non-standard TOTP. Otherwise I wouldn't complain about being locked into Google or Apple ecosystems. They are Play Store or App Store apps that require attestation from the libraries / systems provided Google or Apple like SafetyNet or Play Integrity. Some require strong hardware attestation. If the OS is modified, those checks do not pass. You cannot use any FOSS system without crazy hacks. If the phone is stolen, you have to go through manual reonboarding. It sucks when you're out of the country.

[cycomanic]

> Most banks in Germany, Austria and Portugal default to Play Store or App Store apps with OS integrity checks. It seems like the Nordic countries have it a bit better with the ID reader apps. There are sometimes alternatives and some of them require paid subscription.

Most banks? Do you have evidence? AFAIK many (and certainly the most used) German banks (Sparkasse, Commerzbank, Hypovereinsbank) allow chiptan which does not require a smartphone.

[johnisgood]

> All banks are required to have "safe" 2FA in the EU by EU regulation. SMS is banned.

Hungary is in EU and the most popular bank sends a one-time code (with expiry) via SMS for logging in, making a transaction, for the mere displaying of "Telecode", and so on.

There is no TOTP, only this one-time code sent via SMS.

I do not use their apps on any platform. I login via their website when I need to which is rare. When I make a payment via card, I have to provide the provided 3-digit "Telecode" and the one-time code sent via SMS. There is an option "What if I do not have access to that phone number?" or whatever the literal translation is, but I have not checked that out yet.

... which is why I left a comment asking you about the details. You telling me SMS is banned and referring to EU regulations just left me more confused given the above.

[BasilofBasiley]

>SMS is banned. Really? I didn't know that. Can you point me to a document that states that? I'd greatly appreciate it.

>SafetyNet or Play Integrity

A few days ago I did inspect the NovoBanco (Portuguese) apk, and I did look for SafetyNet specifically. They didn't use it. But since I'm not that familiar with the android eco-system I couldn't really tell if Play Integrity was used instead. But I did find a LOT of HMS (Huawei Mobile Services) stuff, and some if it was definitely related to security.

I might take a look at it again tomorrow.

I was curious if I could sideload the app without logging into a google account, meaning without using google services, but all I did was a tiny bit of static analysis instead of actually trying it.

If you have any write-ups on crazy hacks for foss systems, again it would be awesome if you could share them and greatly appreciated. Cheers

Also, is using HMS a normal thing in android development? Last I checked Huawei was persona non grata in the west, at least when it came to hardware like network equipment and consumer devices. I was surprised when I saw HMS in the apk.

[GoblinSlayer]

Try to run it in virtualbox.

>Last I checked Huawei was persona non grata in the west

Isn't it only in USA?

[pimterry]

All of them now require some kind of 2FA, everywhere. This is due to a legal requirement on all EEA payment providers that they require 2FA for almost everything since 2020, including accessing your account on their website: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_customer_authentication

TOTP codes would be allowed by the regulation, as would biometric approaches or separate physical tokens, but in practice every bank I've used in recent years (quite a few, mostly Spanish but also in Belgium & Switzerland) require that you accept a confirmation prompt or similar in their app.

[logifail]

It feels like "gold-plating" of regulations is and always has been a significant problem in the EU.

Regulations are written (at EU level) to allow X, Y and Z; somehow by the time it's implemented at member state level it miraculously only allows only X or Y, and once it gets to actual service providers (who've presumably been advised by their in-house lawyers that 'Y is bad') we end up with a choice of X or nothing.

Then if you ask anyone at EU level what's going on, they point to what the regulation says, and everyone shrugs.

[Semaphor]

Many or even most banks in Germany don’t require google verification, many even work on rooted phones.

[xxs]

Of course in the EU - pretty much all Baltic and Nordic countries support id cards connected via usb

[okanat]

Well not in Germany. Some banks accept their branded authenticators, some of them don't.

ING in Germany forces you to either have a single Google approved smartphone or a single authenticator, not both.

DKB requires a paid Girocard to use the authenticator or a Google approved smartphone.

N26 requires a single phone but they are a bit lenient. However they have way too many incidents reported where they closed people's accounts without a reason.

The traditional banks have high fees. One pays upwards 10 - 15 Euros a month for Sparkasse or Commerzbank for a simple checking account. Using Sparkasse means you cannot deposit money outside county (yes county and country) borders. Many traditional banks have high fees for withdrawing outside the network.

So one is forced to choose between modern banks with better online experience that's tied to Google and Apple or a traditional bank with oftentimes awful online experience and high fees.

[riedel]

My German bank started to require an Android or IOS smartphone [0]. No dedicated HW, no desktop. I actually dumped my well working Xiaomi Phone because it was either security or banking.

[0] https://www.1822direkt.de/service/fragen-und-antworten/detai...

[okanat]

I actually considered switching to 1822direkt last year. No more!

[generic92034]

> So one is forced to choose between modern banks with better online experience that's tied to Google and Apple or a traditional bank with oftentimes awful online experience and high fees.

I do not understand how you are coming to that conclusion regarding modern banks. You can use the authentication device, which is completely independent of Google or Apple.

[GardenLetter27]

Nope, Sweden requires Mobile BankID on iOS or Android for example.

[Samtidsfobiker]

BankID has a desktop version, and no site which requires Mobile BankID would not allow you to also use the desktop version.

[GardenLetter27]

But it doesn't support Linux.

[osks]

Several of the biggest banks have alternative methods that don’t require mobile BankID.

[synecdoche]

Likewise in Sweden. No bank that I’m aware of is limited to require mobile only login.

[nextos]

Some neobanks are limited to mobile-only. The OP's statement was too general. It's also true that some regular banks are phasing out 2FA via SMS, which is outdated per EU regulations, and may not easily offer alternatives to their app for 2FA codes.

[wkat4242]

Spain provides smart cards to their citizens. Mobile is not needed.

[dzhiurgis]

My experience of using them is horrible.

[janice1999]

>Not in EU.

Please stop spreading disinformation. I live in the EU and my EU bank supports desktop browsers + Card reader matching everything the mobile app can do.

[1over137]

>Not in EU

That's especially crazy. With Trump's/USA's belligerence, why on earth would EU companies/banks/governments want to require that you have an Apple/Google account, it makes them totally dependant on foreigners!

[hulitu]

Because "deal". Why implement an aithentication when you can use the Google/Apple/Microsoft one ? It's free. You only have to make a "deal" and give them all your data (which they have anyway, because they run the keylogger on your device).

[3836293648]

Well in Sweden we can't. You already need bankid on your phone to log in on your PC. There used to be a bankid desktop app and dedicated hardware, but that's gone from many sites now

[kassner]

That I know of: Danske Bank, ICA Banken and Nordea give you some “calculator”-style device to generate codes and login. Danske calls it “kodbox”, Nordea “ID-dosa”. I got mine at account opening, and you need it to issue BankID for the first time.

[3836293648]

That's the dedicated hardware. It's still supported in many places, just not everywhere any more. You will often find mobilt bankid only now.

[osks]

There are banks/companies that require BankID, but there are several big banks that have alternative methods. It seems that only Swedbank of the big four require mobile BankID for sign in.

[tarsinge]

For now, there is an increasing number of banks and government websites that are broken if you are not using Chrome or full on requires it.

[agf]

This has been true since it stopped being true for Internet Explorer. I've not noticed any significant change over time. I have been using Firefox for over 20 years.

[lloydatkinson]

Back when Microsoft said they were going to let Android apps run on Windows before killing it off for I think the third time, I was excited that I'd be able to run my bank app on my desktop. The app is a simple process to login, but the website has about 50 steps to login making it unappealing to use (probably on purpose).

[Gander5739]

You can, aith Windows subsystem for Android. Unsurprisingly, it's not going to be supported for much longer.

[worldsayshi]

I get that it wouldn't be optimal but can you run it on an android emulator?

[ale42]

True. But it doesn't _need_ to be so, it's actually a problem.

[freehorse]

True, but there are alternatives to using these services, though a bit more inconvenient. What will be the alternative to the age verification mobile app?

[anttiharju]

> This already the case today, you can't run your bank's app or government eID apps on anything but Google or Apple devices.

Fairphone 6 with e/OS begs to differ. Dutch phone with a French OS. No issues.

[em-bee]

well, my bank's app does not run on /e/OS. i get some kind of security error

[anttiharju]

Responding to an anecdote with another is fair I suppose