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by crikeykangaroo 266 days ago
"We could have dropped a nuke, but instead, opted to drop so many bombs over time which equal a couple of nukes! Totally not a genocide!"
1 comments

How do you feel about the bombing of Dresden in World War 2? If people like you were listened to back then, you would be speaking German right now and I wouldn't be here.
Germany was still launching ballistic missiles at England a month after Dresden.

It’s a false analogy, the conventional war is long over and hamas has no real military capacity to do much anymore.

The equivalent would be the allies refusing to occupy Berlin and still bombing it well into 1946 despite the war being won.

Allies also had a rather clear plan on what goals they want to achieve and why. Israeli government seems to have no idea what do they want to achieve and how (besides extending Netanyahu’s political career..)

> Germany was still launching ballistic missiles at England a month after Dresden.

Just in the past 24 hours, there were rockets launched from Gaza toward Ashdod - https://www.timesofisrael.com/two-rockets-fired-at-ashdod-id...

> hamas has no real military capacity to do much anymore

They're still in control of a significant minority of Gaza territory. "Destroy military assets and get out" can sometimes be a useful strategy, but it's a pretty short term solution.

> what goals they want to achieve and why

The goal seems to be occupation of the entire strip, to make it difficult for Hamas (and PIJ etc) to operate effectively.

"significant minority of Gaza territory" you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Do you have some kind of response that isn't just an ad hominem?
There is no such thing as significant minority. Therefore your argument is predicated on nothing, and a loss of time.
> They're still in control of a significant minority of Gaza territory

If so its only because Israel decided to allow them to maintain that control.

> but it's a pretty short term solution.

Exactly, that seems to be Israel’s strategy. If they actually destroyed Hamas the rightwing government in Israel would lose the bogeyman keeping them in power (that’s why they were propping up Hamas for years).

how does this follow?
If likewise fighting the Nazis had been stopped because of people calling it a "genocide" the outcome would have been catastrophic.
Hamas doesn’t have tanks, bombers, cruise or ballistic missiles though.

Destroying their capacity to wage war didn’t require blowing up every building in Gaza.

Unlike the Nazis, Hamas isn't capitulating. If the Nazis hadn't capitulated, the allies wouldn't just have gone home.
That’s true. However Israel is allowing Hamas to maintain some presence and control over Gaza instead of directly occupying it like the allies did.
Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were destroyed without it being a genocide.
and so were many British towns and cities. atrocity /= genocide. how does the speaking German or non-existence of the commenter follow?
If we hadn't bombed these cities we might not have won the war. Arguably we didn't have to nuke Japan but chose to over the cost of the lives of our own soldiers (including my grandfather a marine in the pacific). War involves doing horrific things you don't want to do and wouldn't normally do (look at Israel's actions pre Oct 7th versus post, this sort of war is not the natural state for Israel). War requires you lean on the side of doing too much damage versus limiting your military actions. War requires you take maximal actions, unlike policing where we try to use minimal. If the US fought Japan how people want Israel to fight the government of Gaza, I would not exist, my grandfather would have died storming Japan. It would have been a more moral victory, but it is very hard for any society to choose sacrificing their 18 years olds in a conflict initiated by the other side, when war strategy dictates that other paths/actions be taken, paths with less of your 18 year olds dead and a higher chance of reaching your goals. War by it's naturing is fought maximally, not as a police action.

This is also not a gentleman's war. A neighboring government supported by their citizens who joined in spontaneously, launched a surprise attack that killed 1000+, and indiscriminately maimed/raped/tortured thousands more, while broadcasting video of themselves kidnapping random 6 year old girls to the world, neighboring citizens who phoned home to their parents to brag 'I killed 10 jews today'.

War sucks. War is horrific. Which is why it sucks Hamas, the government of Gaza, chose this war. Why it sucks Hamas structured things for the war to proceed, with maximal civilian damage and casualties. Why it sucks Hamas chose to use civilian hostages abducted during the murder/rape/maiming of thousands. No country can just let their citizens be abducted and held captive like Hamas choses to do, intentionally ratcheting up the pressure/tempo of the war that they initiated.

But allies stopped bombing Germany after they occupied it?

They had rather specific goals and were willing to directly occupy Germany at great risk and cost instead of continuing to bomb its civilians for an indeterminate amount of time while they starved to death..

That’s perhaps a bit different?

this is all very well-put, but when it comes down to it, Israel is deliberately prolonging this war, has been provoking it for years, and is not acting in the self-defense you're implying. Netanyahu is out of a job and maybe facing prison the second this war ends, nakedly promoted Hamas over a more reasonable power the best he can, and has aggressively pushed illegal settlements. and more than anything, is living on land that was Palestinian within living memory. none of this was true in WW2. you can blame Hamas all you like, but all you're doing is rewarding Israel's strategy to demonise and make Palestinian statehood unpalatable

also, and primarily, if you have any awareness of Japanese history whatsoever, you should be able to know that the nuking of Japan was the special case of all special cases. personally I think they should have just nuked somewhere in rural Japan first to make their point, and then gone for a population centre if that had failed to work, but that's beside the point, which is that Japan did not believe it could be beaten. any time they had been threatened historically, they had triumphed dramatically, often with the weather or random luck seemingly on their side. this sounds silly, but it's true. they needed to be shocked out of their arrogance. the same is not true of Hamas.

also your "war should be fought with maximum force" and--by implication--brutality is just complete bullshit and you've not actually made any effort to justify it other tham just saying that it's true