[_DeadFred_]

If we hadn't bombed these cities we might not have won the war. Arguably we didn't have to nuke Japan but chose to over the cost of the lives of our own soldiers (including my grandfather a marine in the pacific). War involves doing horrific things you don't want to do and wouldn't normally do (look at Israel's actions pre Oct 7th versus post, this sort of war is not the natural state for Israel). War requires you lean on the side of doing too much damage versus limiting your military actions. War requires you take maximal actions, unlike policing where we try to use minimal. If the US fought Japan how people want Israel to fight the government of Gaza, I would not exist, my grandfather would have died storming Japan. It would have been a more moral victory, but it is very hard for any society to choose sacrificing their 18 years olds in a conflict initiated by the other side, when war strategy dictates that other paths/actions be taken, paths with less of your 18 year olds dead and a higher chance of reaching your goals. War by it's naturing is fought maximally, not as a police action.

This is also not a gentleman's war. A neighboring government supported by their citizens who joined in spontaneously, launched a surprise attack that killed 1000+, and indiscriminately maimed/raped/tortured thousands more, while broadcasting video of themselves kidnapping random 6 year old girls to the world, neighboring citizens who phoned home to their parents to brag 'I killed 10 jews today'.

War sucks. War is horrific. Which is why it sucks Hamas, the government of Gaza, chose this war. Why it sucks Hamas structured things for the war to proceed, with maximal civilian damage and casualties. Why it sucks Hamas chose to use civilian hostages abducted during the murder/rape/maiming of thousands. No country can just let their citizens be abducted and held captive like Hamas choses to do, intentionally ratcheting up the pressure/tempo of the war that they initiated.

[wqaatwt]

But allies stopped bombing Germany after they occupied it?

They had rather specific goals and were willing to directly occupy Germany at great risk and cost instead of continuing to bomb its civilians for an indeterminate amount of time while they starved to death..

That’s perhaps a bit different?

[_DeadFred_]

Gaza is getting 3,004 calories of energy per day per person.

Official rations in Germany varied from 800–1550 calories per day. 800 airdropped, 1550 the amount post occupation. Are you arguing Israel should fully occupy and partition Gaza, like the allies did in Germany, and cut from the 3004 current calorie target to the 1550 one used by the USA in occupied Germany?

What is different here? Germans in occupied Germany received LESS food than Gazan do today. Are you saying you want less food to go into Gaza because Gaza is getting twice the calorie targets of what the USA targeted for occupied Germany? Germany was fire bombed (much much worse than the bombing in Gaza) and given 1/3 to 1/2 as much food going on years after the conflict ended. I'm really confused what you are pushing for? I thought people wanted more food into Gaza, not severely less like how the USA treated occupied Germany.

It sounds like you are saying Israel would be more just if they firebombed Gaza then partitioned it into smaller pieces isolating residents to those areas, and cut food in half from what Gaza is getting fed today? And that's ignoring the mass mass rapes that occured in Germany. What you are arguing for would be very, very bad.

https://ijhpr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13584-025-...

https://hhr-atlas.ieg-mainz.de/articles/oconnell-washington-...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_in_occupied_Germany

[wqaatwt]

> What you are arguing for would be very, very bad.

What do you think I’m arguing for?

Besides saying that Israel should finally decide what do they want to do instead of prolonging the current situation?

If they want to resettle or otherwise “remove” the population they should get on with it.

Otherwise they should trying to figure out a more sustainable solution.

Except Netanyahu’s political career seems to be taking precedent over everything else..

[linehedonist]

Putting aside its accuracy, your 3004 calorie count is for the first half of last year. Famously, of course, the food situation in Gaza is much worse now in 2025 than in 2024, starting with the fact that Israel allowed in zero (0) food for months this year. How does that fact change your opinion?

[_DeadFred_]

Again I am not condoning what Israel is doing, I am simply continuing the discussion of if the US treated occupied Germany better than Israel is treating Gaza DURING wartime (the US was worse than I list here during wartime), which I don't think the US did. War is absolutely horrible. It took almost a year for the US to allow aid agencies to bring in food for starving German children. It sucks. It sucks the government of Gaza chose to start this war, chose the path to all this suffering. Germans were still on starvation diets in 1947, 2 years after the war ended. Child mortality in Germany was double western Europe until 1948. That is war. War sucks. Fuck Hamas for choosing war.

While WW2 ended in May 1945, relief organizations were not allowed into occupied Germany with supplies for starving children until mid 1946

Which months did Gaza not receive any aid? I see statements like this from the UN:

"Within the enclave, the World Food Programme (WFP) has food stocks sufficient to support active kitchens and bakeries for up to one month, as well as ready-to-eat food parcels to support 550,000 people for two weeks, Mr. Dujarric said."

https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/03/1161146

implying their is future risk, not that there were months with zero aid given out. There were months Germany did not receive new aid shipments as well, but existing aid was still given out. It looks like July of this year aid was down due to Hamas, not Israel. Again remember we are talking post war Germany versus active conflict Gaza where Hamas USES these sorts of things as weapons.

Looking around the GHF food boxes contain 42500 calories for 5.5 people for 3.5 days, making it 2207 calories a day. Still significantly higher than what the US occupation fed to Germans, the comparison that was brought up as 'better'.

So again, they are better off than occupied Germany was in the 1000-1500 calorie occupation/immediate post war 1945–46 years.

I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying war completely sucks, but that Israel is doing more than the USA did for Germany at the end of and immediately following WW2, the example that was presented to me as being better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_in_occupied_Germany

"The German infant mortality rate was twice that of other nations in Western Europe until the close of 1948."

"In early 1946, U.S. President Harry S. Truman allowed foreign relief organizations to enter Germany in order to review the food situation. In mid-1946, non-German relief organizations were permitted to help starving German children.[19] The German food situation became worst during the very cold winter of 1946–47, when German food energy intake ranged from 4,200 to 6,300 kJ (1,000 to 1,500 kcal) per day, a situation made worse by severe lack of fuel for heating."

"Herbert Hoover reported that in the fall of 1946, starvation produced a 40 percent increase in mortality among Germans over 70"

"Also, once it became clear there would be no rising, as threatened by the Nazis during the war, food controls were relaxed." - showing access to food was political on the US side.

"U.S. occupation forces were under strict orders not to share their food with the German population; these orders also applied to their wives when they arrived later in the occupation. The women were under orders not to allow their German maids to get hold of any leftovers; "the food was to be destroyed or made inedible"

"Your soldiers are good-natured, good ambassadors; but they create unnecessary ill will to pour 20 liters [5 U.S. gallons] of leftover cocoa in the gutter when it is badly needed in our clinics. It makes it hard for me to defend American democracy among my countrymen."

I think we've exhausted this discussion. Objectively occupied Germany had much much lower daily calories than ongoing combat Gaza. The US waited a year before aid agencies could help starving children. The US troops destroyed food IN FRONT OF starving Germans as part of policy for a year.

[linehedonist]

> Which months did Gaza not receive any aid?

Zero (0) food entered Gaza from March 2, 2025 to May 19, 2025.

Two and a half months.

Barbaric.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-halts-aid-into-gaza-ove... https://aijac.org.au/fact-sheets/fact-sheet-aid-into-gaza/#f... https://gaza-aid-data.gov.il/media/sftjdsg2/cogat-humanitari...

[_DeadFred_]

It looks like during a two month pause in fighting stocks were built up in Gaza. From reading the articles while there were fears, it looks like food was handed out continuously. I can't find calory counts, be if they dropped by half from the target 3000 calories they would still by at the high end for Germans during periods of US occupation (1000-1500 calories a day).

I would argue waiting a year before the USA allowed aid agencies to feed starving children after the war still puts the US occupation in Germany in a worse situation, the fact infant mortality was double in Germany for 3 years after the war, the fact that target calories were 1/3-1/2 for Germans than for the people in Gaza today.

Germans were at much greater risk as the 1000-1500 calories level doesn't leave as much room for issues as Gaza's 3000 calorie one. In addition Germany had really harsh winters during this period which would need more calories than Gaza.

I think we've explored this topic to it's end. I think objectively the occupation of Germany post war by the US was worse than what Israel has done during an ongoing war to feed Gaza. It's horrific that the government of Gaza chose to start this war and chose to head down the path to all the suffering that war can create.

[wqaatwt]

This is not WW2. This is much closer to the 2001 war in Afghanistan.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. They can stage terror attacks their conventional military capacity is insignificant. Much like US vs the Taliban.

Also it’s not like there isn’t anyone willing to supply enough food and other resources needed by the Gazan population (unlike in postwar Germany, the situation in France, Benelux etc. wasn’t that great in 1945 either.) it’s just that Israel is heavily limiting that.

[wqaatwt]

This is not WW2. This is much closer to the 2001 war in Afghanistan.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. They can stage terror attacks their conventional military capacity is insignificant. Much like US vs the Taliban. Also it’s not like there isn’t anyone willing to supply enough food and other resources needed by the Gazan population (unlike in postwar Germany) it’s just that Israel is heavily limiting that.

[permo-w]

this is all very well-put, but when it comes down to it, Israel is deliberately prolonging this war, has been provoking it for years, and is not acting in the self-defense you're implying. Netanyahu is out of a job and maybe facing prison the second this war ends, nakedly promoted Hamas over a more reasonable power the best he can, and has aggressively pushed illegal settlements. and more than anything, is living on land that was Palestinian within living memory. none of this was true in WW2. you can blame Hamas all you like, but all you're doing is rewarding Israel's strategy to demonise and make Palestinian statehood unpalatable

also, and primarily, if you have any awareness of Japanese history whatsoever, you should be able to know that the nuking of Japan was the special case of all special cases. personally I think they should have just nuked somewhere in rural Japan first to make their point, and then gone for a population centre if that had failed to work, but that's beside the point, which is that Japan did not believe it could be beaten. any time they had been threatened historically, they had triumphed dramatically, often with the weather or random luck seemingly on their side. this sounds silly, but it's true. they needed to be shocked out of their arrogance. the same is not true of Hamas.

also your "war should be fought with maximum force" and--by implication--brutality is just complete bullshit and you've not actually made any effort to justify it other tham just saying that it's true