[zelphirkalt]

Zionist state - So that is the state, that thinks, that the land is god given theirs, right? Maybe such a state should disappear and a sane state appear in its stead. It may be that Hamas has a different understanding of that, but I think, that this religious fanatics state thing is no good for Israel as a country anyway. It would do them good to get rid of that ideological baggage.

[dotancohen]

  > So that is the state, that thinks, that the land is god given theirs, right?

Though there does exist a small religious minority that does claim the holy land to belong to Jews as it was given by God, I only know one such person. Most Israelis feel that Israel should be a Jewish state because we earned the land in the same fashion as almost every other nation on Earth, and certainly in the same fashion as ever other nation in the Middle East.

But I'll tell you who does think that certain land can only belong to people of a specific race. People who call the holy land "Palestinian land". The invention of that term was, as are many of the anti-Jewish arguments, an inversion of the Jewish use of "God -given land". And just as you reject the idea when it is used by Jews, so would a logical person reject the idea when used by our enemies.

[zelphirkalt]

Of course, I would reject the same idea from the other side, no question. To me personally, all this religious hogwash about who is the chosen people and whatever amounts to no credible argument either way. Too bad the religious fanatics don't use their religion to do good and be social and friendly instead.

But that is a side issue, since Israel is the one taking territory away, that is not theirs to take. It is not theirs, due to people living in that land and having lived there for many generations. Then armed settler gangs supported by the IDF violently hunt Palestinians out of their homes and plundering them. That's not all of it, there are even cases of murder without prosecution.

So the point is the perpetrator, whether it is one side or the other, needs to stop, be put back into their internationally recognized borders, and we need to do what we can to make the perpetrator stay there.

[dotancohen]

  > Too bad the religious fanatics don't use their religion to do good and be social and friendly instead.

Agreed 100% on that! Nobody was chosen and no land belongs securely to a single race.

  > since Israel is the one taking territory away, that is not theirs to take

This is incorrect. As frequently as Israel is accused of "stealing land", all land that Israel holds was won in a defensive war.

Now there are nuances of land belonging to the state, and occupation, and annexation, and personal property rights, and the relationship between different bodies ruling and maintaining (or not maintaining) areas A, B, and C. But Israel is not stealing land. If there are specific incidences that you would like to discuss, then please mention them. This is my hobby, I might have an answer ))

  > armed settler gangs supported by the IDF violently hunt Palestinians out of their homes and plundering them.

Please mention such an incident, I would much rather address a specific incident than talk in general.

  > That's not all of it, there are even cases of murder without prosecution.

Yes, I do agree that has happened. I'm not going to whitewash or deny facts.

  > be put back into their internationally recognized borders

You should be aware that the internationally recognised borders of the state of Israel include Gaza and the West Bank (but not the Golden Heights). These are the borders of Mandatory Palestine after Jordan was cut off (1923 I believe). The green line is a cease fire line - not an internationally recognised border. This fact was used to justify many cross-border attacks against the state of Israel. The principal is that a successor state inherits the borders of its predecessor state.

[leoh]

This is exactly right. One of the things that I find very anti-semitic and extremely harmful is that the media has extremely rarely reported on the millions of Israelis that are extremely against the continued military intervention in Gaza, which has lent itself to dehumanization of Israel write large.

[zelphirkalt]

The media should definitely report on those. I would love to see those millions on the streets protesting. Sadly, lately that does not seem to be happening. Did you see that Guardian press guy interviewing people in Tel Aviv[1]? He had trouble even finding one person, who would openly state, that they feel bad for all the Palestinian civilians now suffering.

If they exist, then please show me those millions protesting. That would improve my image of the Israeli civilian population from "most don't care because it is not them suffering" to "there definitely is a sizable portion who does care and wants to be heard and seen".

[1]: https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=nMyyVaiY4V8k

[dotancohen]

I haven't seen the video, but he didn't try very hard. Outside of small religious extremist communities, most Israelis realize two things about the Gazans:

- They are suffering severely. - They are suffering due to the education of UNRWA, teaching them that the murder of Jews is the highest honour.

Of course we feel pity for them. But pity is not actionable - and we want our hostages back.