[ajross]

Nah, they're still the best cars you can buy[1]. It's all down to Musk's political antics.

[1] Seriously, it's hard to be lacking in innovation when other brands still don't even have walk-up unlock or 360° cameras, much less drive themselves around or launch like rockets. And the repairability thing is a meme from back when they had part production lag due to crazy scaling. Getting a Tesla fixed now (and yes, I have) is like "click three buttons in your app and come in tomorrow".

[amluto]

I’ve recently test-driven EVs from a few brands, including Tesla. One stood out for building an EV that actually felt like a functioning car: Kia. It actually has buttons for things that are commonly adjusted while driving. The current crop of Teslas don’t even have physical controls for reverse.

[rsynnott]

> The current crop of Teslas don’t even have physical controls for reverse.

... Wait, seriously? Like, you have to _use the touch screen to put it in reverse_? That can't possibly be the case.

[amluto]

Yes. This has now infected all models.

[Kirby64]

No, it’s not. There are buttons on the roof area (where the interior lights and hazard button are) that have the PRND buttons.

Also, all the new models have an auto shift functionality so you don’t even really have to use any buttons at all.

[amluto]

> Also, all the new models have an auto shift functionality so you don’t even really have to use any buttons at all.

This seems utterly insane. It’s already annoying that tapping somewhere on a phone screen has a different effect depending on whether I win or lose the race against some UI update. I do not want my rather heavy vehicle to move in a different direction depending on which way the computer thinks I want it to move.

[Kirby64]

You don't have to use it if you don't want to. You can turn it off and just use the headliner buttons only. Also, the vehicle is not moving when you don't want it to. The brake and accelerator pedals still function and it should be abundantly obvious if it's in reverse vs. drive, given the backup camera is on vs. off.

In practice, everything I've seen is that it works well, and predictably does what you expect it to do. And if it doesn't, you are one swipe away from fixing that.

[kube-system]

Tesla was not first to market for keyless entry, 360 cameras, nor level 2 ADAS. In fact, they are behind. A couple of automakers are now shipping level 3 ADS systems.

[ajross]

> keyless entry, 360 cameras, nor level 2 ADAS

It's the only non-luxury brand I'm aware of with all of those features. Who are you thinking about?

Also you're misdirecting: "keyless entry" isn't remotely the same as "your phone is your key".

And the "level 2 ADAS" business is a transparent attempt to troll an FSD argument to which won't engage except to say, again, that the user experience of letting your car drive a 200 mile leg of a long road trip is also not remotely the same as always bouncing around and stomping on brakes experience of the lanekeeping offered elsewhere.

You know both of these truths, which is why you want to redefine the features to make them false.

[kube-system]

>> keyless entry, 360 cameras, nor level 2 ADAS

> It's the only non-luxury brand I'm aware of with all of those features. Who are you thinking about?

Most non-luxury brands offer these features today. Toyota Camry, for instance.

> Also you're misdirecting: "keyless entry" isn't remotely the same as "your phone is your key".

1. You didn't say anything about doing it with a phone. 2. If you do want to do it with a phone, for whatever reason, other automakers also offer this, e.g.:

https://connected-mobility.hyundai.com/what-we-do/connected-...

https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/fordpass/phone-as-a-key...

> And the "level 2 ADAS" business is a transparent attempt to troll an FSD argument to which won't engage except to say, again, that the user experience of letting your car drive a 200 mile leg of a long road trip is also not remotely the same as always bouncing around and stomping on brakes experience of the lanekeeping offered elsewhere.

You shouldn't be taking your hands off the wheel while using systems that require your hands to be on the wheel. Other automakers have hands-free level 2 systems. Here's the list of brands that currently offer a hand-free level 2 system: BMW, Ford, Lincoln, Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Jeep, Ram, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Infiniti, Toyota, Lexus

> You know both of these truths, which is why you want to redefine the features to make them false.

I think maybe you're just not aware of what is on the market right now.

[ajross]

Now you're playing games with "offer". I've never once seen a Camry with cameras. I'm sure it's on a trim somewhere, but not on dealers lots or at a price people want to pay.

Look, the simple ground truth is that the experience of driving a four year old Tesla (the age of my Y) is simply better than any vehicle I'm going to find anywhere at that price point or lower (or give a bit for inflation, even).

> You shouldn't be taking your hands off the wheel while using systems that require your hands to be on the wheel.

Sigh. I said I wouldn't be trolled[1], but it's a camera-based attention monitoring system now. There's no requirement for the hand on the wheel (well, it will yell at you if it sees you duck out of the camera center and you need a physical input to acknowledge), and hasn't been for more than a year.

The "car gets new features years after purchase" thing is another point in favor, FWIW.

Look, you're just wrong on this. You'll never believe that, because you'll never drive a Tesla. But I do, and I'm right.

[1] You also played the "level 2" game again, pretending that one number defines the feature set when you know very well it does not. That now has moved from "trolling" to simple lying, I'd say.

[kube-system]

> Now you're playing games with "offer". I've never once seen a Camry with cameras.

I test drove one last year, it wasn't even the highest trim... A few of my coworkers are driving used cars with 360 cameras. These aren't really new features.

> Look, the simple ground truth is that the experience of driving a four year old Tesla (the age of my Y) is simply better than any vehicle I'm going to find anywhere at that price point or lower (or give a bit for inflation, even).

Yeah, they're not bad cars. I never said they were. I said other auto makers are also shipping some of these features. I'm not attacking your vehicle; you're allowed to like it.

> Sigh. I said I wouldn't be trolled[1], but it's a camera-based attention monitoring system now. There's no requirement for the hand on the wheel (well, it will yell at you if it sees you duck out of the camera center and you need a physical input to acknowledge), and hasn't been for more than a year.

Yes, they updated their system to do this last year. A lot of auto makers have hands-free systems today, many of them already had them shipped last year, and some shipped them years before Tesla did. And while Tesla still requires you to look at the road, a couple of auto makers are shipping level three systems.

I'm not making any sort of personal attack on your purchase. I'm just here to tell you that they're not the only ones shipping these sorts of features.

[alasdair_]

We have a model X and model S. I still like them but for our latest car we bought a Rivian SUV instead. The interior is just laid out better and there is a lot more space despite being roughly the same size as the X.

The Rivian has the 360 degree view and other stuff as well.

And as for the delays - our X was in a minor collision last November and is STILL not fixed. The only way to contact Tesla is through the app and so we make an appointment, take photos, describe the issue and then are told to wait two months for our appointment. Then invariably the day before the appointment, we are told that the center we had the appointment at cannot do the work and to go to another center, with another two month delay, which then tells us the same thing.

Not being able to reach a human to fix out $100k+ car is infuriating.

[metaphor]

> And the repairability thing is a meme from back when they had part production lag due to crazy scaling.

Respectfully, bullshit; auto insurance companies I've dealt with certainly begged to differ, and have priced comprehensive/collision premiums for Teslas accordingly.

[ajross]

My premiums seem fine. Also I don't see why insurance risk management has anything in particular to do with "repairability".

[kube-system]

Insurance premiums for Teslas are well above the national average for insuring a new vehicle. Although, they've gotten better in recent years. The Model S used to be number one most expensive vehicle to insure in the US, even beating out exotic cars.

Repairability is a risk to insurance companies because they are liable to repair vehicle vehicles. When parts and labor are in short supply, they are more expensive. These expenses are something that an insurance company would pay in a claim for a vehicle they are liable to fix. Also, please remember that insurance companies also sometimes must pay consequential costs, e.g. a rental car, while vehicle repair repairs are pending.

[01HNNWZ0MV43FF]

Istg I had a ten year old Prius with walk up unlock

They're terrible for privacy too. Just give me the finished product after the AC button is in and the telemetry is gone

[sleepyguy]

I don't know why you're getting junked. A friend's Model Y was rear-ended, and he had it fixed in less than two weeks. Did have a sensor problem afterwards, but that was taken care of immediately. I think you're accurate that they are still ahead of the competition, but the race is getting closer.